Is using AutoIT/AutoHotKey cheating?

So once again we are back to the idea that you need to specify each and every instance of what could be construed as possibly being cheating.

I never understood why they made signs like this before, but its obviously for people like you.

Well judging by your view advanced mice would be cheating too, so yes we need to differenciate.

"Can potentially fall under that" is not the same as "does fall under that"
Until Valve and/or Uber clearly says "No macro's allowed" then it's pretty much fair game.

I have a G15v2 keyboard, does that mean I should be disallowed from playing the game because I have the option to create macros? I don't even use the G keys for ingame macros, they're rigged up for general use and/or firefox
General set is Notepad, Calculator, link to the NWS and some folder links
Firefox is for quicker tab navigation
I do have sets for various games, but to make the G keys act like Esc, Tilde, Tab, CapsLock, Shift, Ctrl, otherwise I my game gets minimized

Besides, I haven't used WASD for movement in years, so the G keys are on the far side of the board when I'm playing and that makes them nigh useless to me

And that is why most high level tournaments are NOT "bring your own computer" and instead use identical hardware. And it is also why many games have systems to handle in-game macro creation, because they want you to use macros but they don't want some players to specifically have a mechanical advantage over others.

"Can potentially fall under that" is not the same as "does fall under that"
Until Valve and/or Uber clearly says "No macro's allowed" then it's pretty much fair game.

"No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service."
"Well you didn't say I needed to wear pants!" :roll:

Yes because forcing a professional player to use a mouse he isn't used to is surely a good thing, pro tip: most of the good LANs also allow the most wanted modifications in order to cater to people with a taste for hardware but hey that aside, it's on Uber and Valve to take a definite stance on it only that Valve hasn't for a long time since AHK is still allowed.

I showed you an option to get a stance - use it or lose it.

I've been tempted to test that one actually, but if you think about it a bit, swimwear isn't "pants"

They don't let teams use custom bats in baseball either.

Because it's against the rules of an organised game
Same with tourneys/LANs/whatever that disallow the hardware you want to use

First off, right then and there is rather uninformed. There is such a thing in baseball as a code of conduct. If you do drugs (and get caught in the screening), or if you commit a crime and are jailed for it, especially a felony, you're going to be punished not only by the law, but by your team. At best, the league will suspend you, with or without pay. At worst, you default on your contracts, and you'll never be in the league again. They might even take you out of the hall of fame, or stop any recommendations. Even more to my point... Autohotkey wont get you jailed, and its not physically harming any property.

Your definition of poor taste isn't up to par. Poor taste is not shaking the hands of the other team after a game. And even then, there are limits. If you flip off someone in front of the cameras, and yell obscenities, you will be penalized because you're breaking a code of conduct. Unsportsmanship like behavior HAS been penalized in all sports games. I've seen football games where the offense gets a first down because one of the defensive players started insulting another player with F-bombs and snide comments about their mother.

This game doesn't have poor sportsmanship penalities. Sometimes I wish they did, so people won't spam the mic with their F-bomb this, and their f-bomb that, with their 15 year old cracking voice, and their sniper, 3/10 600$ 10 minutes into the match, gameplay.

Secondly, no you don't. Because "possibly being cheating" is not "cheating". Whereas an aimbot for this type of game is quite clearly in the no area, scripting is in a grey area. Anyone who says it's not in a grey area, is just fooling themselves, because having someone officially say it's in poor taste (but not say its cheating), PUTS it in the grey area. We don't need to be told whats POSSIBLY is a cheat, because it does us no good. If its not a cheat, and it gives you an advantage that anyone is savvy enough to be able to use, then they're going to use it. We only need to be told what IS cheating. If Uber went out and said: "Using macros is cheating", then fine. I'll stop using AutoHotKey, and I won't use a macro keyboard/mouse (though I don't have either). But they haven't. If they do? Fine! I win either way, because it's not that I'd mind not using AutoHotKey. I mind people thinking its a cheat when it's in a grey area, and no one from the dev team has said that it's cheating. If they clarified, I'd be happy either way!

Your posts seem to rely on attacking the poster, instead of making any good point. Witty images have no value against simple, and pretty easy to understand logic.

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That being said...


Did you even read the post you quoted? If you didn't, then don't quote it entirely. Quote the parts you did read. I know it's long. Here's the specific part:

It's a simple idea. It's only cheating if the developers clearly state it's cheating. Either through using a program which stops it, or otherwise states that it is. NOT EVERY GAME FALLS UNDER THIS CATEGORY. For example, any single player game which allows the developer console... ALLOWS CHEATING! Gasp! However, if it doesn't, and they specifically say "you're not allowed to use programs to cheat the system, because we have a single player ranking that will become skewed if you do", then they don't!


Say there is a FPS that has no protection against cheating except for things which modify health, and modify damage. It doesn't protect against anything else, not even cheat engine. We'll call this game "Cheaters Delight, The First Person Shooter". The goal of the game is to use cheat engine, and any programs you script, like an aimbot, to give you the best character while you're playing. High scores are dictated by time of completing your cheating, and how well your cheats work. All weapons are projectile (not hitscan based). Now, is using an aimbot cheating? No. It's part of the damn game now.

Aimbot is only considered a cheat, because the developers built their game around you not having aimbot. Autohotkey ISNT a cheat, because the developers have already stated that they want the functionality that autohotkey and macro keyboards already have in their ingame engine... It's just that they haven't gotten around to it, and they said it was in poor taste, because it gives you an unfair advantage. He didn't state it was a cheat. He said it was in poor taste. Poor taste =/= cheating. Not saying GG after a Starcraft 2 game, or raging how you lost IS poor taste. Sticky spawning in TF2 IS poor taste, but unless the server admins say its cheating... ITS NOT CHEATING! Scripts aren't cheating in TF2 either, unless Valve says that certain scripts are... then they disable those scripts or make them pointless (pistol script I'm looking at you).

The point is, THEY decide whats cheating. NOT you. And they haven't decided AutoHotKey is cheating UNLESS they say so bluntly. And if they do? All it does is make the people who DONT have macro keyboards but CAN use autohotkey, and a disadvantage to those who DO have macro keyboards. All they would do is make the problem slightly smaller, and make it so that those who live check by check, who cant afford to pay for a 50-80$ keyboard, already at a bigger disadvantage considering it's those people most likely that don't have a computer that's good in the first place.

The only unfair advantage it gives are to the people who can't be bothered to look up how to do it. This can be solved by simply posting our autohotkey scripts so people don't have to. I never made a script in my life, and I already made an autohotkey script that buys a skill (by using 4, 8, 6, and 2) passable well with only one button press. It took me 10 minutes to look up the required information, and another 10 to flesh out the kinks. 20 minutes, for a guy who doesn't even know what he's doing, but knows how to use friggen google search. I think anyone who can play MNC has access to google, okay?

Also? Let me use a baseball example. In baseball, it wasn't illegal to throw a spitball. In fact, it was encouraged, because it made it harder to hit the ball. This practice when first introduced gave an incredibly advantage to the team, and it. Some people in the game did say it was unfair. Especially those who were batters, or those teams that didn't have a spitball thrower... -yet-. But that doesn't make it illegal. That just makes it contriversal.

It required a bit of know how to make a good spitball, and throw it correctly, but after that know-how, it was pretty easy for a pitcher to do it. Just like how autohotkey is.

Even when it was first introduced, some people didn't like it. However, it remained in the game, and others created their own version of the spitball (just like how people are creating their own scripts for MNC with autohotkey).

THE ORGANIZATION (not the fans, not the playrs), eventually restricted it so that there was one or two designated throwers on a team. Then they outright made it illegal, and grandfathered in those who created their career around their spitball. THEY decided when using spitballs was against the spirit of the game. Not the fans. The people who organized the event. Now, they did take input from the fans, and it didn't help that the spitball killed a guy who wasn't wearing his helmet (because it wasn't required of him to do so), but the point still stands. It's wasn't illegal when it was discovered or used until those that made the rules of the game decided that it wasn't something they wanted to keep in the game.

The big difference between the Spitball and Autohotkey? Well, for one, the Spitball was much less fair (it gave the batters hell, which is half the other playerbase. Autohotkey works for everyone, not just the guys who are playing one class). And secondly, the developers already stated that they WANTED to put in some of the game features which users of autohotkey already have by creating their own scripts. I'm using autohotkey just so I don't have to fumble around with the clunky way of buying skills. IF I had a macro keyboard? I'd use that!

Instead of pressing three buttons (b, one of the skills, then b again), I can press -one- button. No matter how you cut it, that's cutting the time it takes to buy a single skill by somewhere around 2/3rds. It doesn't give me a huge advantage. It just makes it less tedious. Instead of slowly buying a skill in the middle of combat (or waiting for respawn), I can duck in cover, quickly buy a skill, then get back to the real game.

quod erat demonstrandum, autohotkey ain't cheating unless the developers go out and say it is. Not 'poor taste'. Cheating.

And if they do? Then they better find a way to keep people from using autohotkey AND macro keyboards, because if they don't, they'd be hypocrites.

Edit: I've said all I've wanted to say on this subject. I'm not going to post in this topic anymore.

Adding a 200 millisecond delay to damage like the TF2 sniper would effectively get rid of the issue without having to fret over how to handle autohotkey directly.

Wouldn't.

Elaborate.

We've been over such things in other lengthy Sniper balance threads, it wouldn't stop people from using macros since you can easily account for such delays and it would essentially gimp those snipers who shoot fast enough.

"Oh what's that you shot faster than 200ms? No damage for you" That also sucks in TF2 where you are fucked when you shoot too fast from a scope and then you die from a Scout.

It's an unintuitive and bad cop-out and it would actually rather induce a sense of having to macro for people like me just to make sure that we always stay in damage zone rather than no damage zone.

BOMB JUMPING GIVES ASSAULTS AN UNFAIR TRAVEL ADVANTAGE AND IS THEREFORE CHEATING BECAUSE OTHER CLASSES CAN'T DO IT!

/thread

Seriously guys, grow the **** up.

TF 2's Snipers were never meant to do the things to scouts that pro's have elevated the sniper into being. Valve's rigid class design was made so that all classes "should have a chance to fight back" but not be 1 v 1 balanced with one another. You are "suppose" to be screwed if a scout get's into it's optimum range and weapons of choice in this case being the SMG and the machete...according to the devs.

The MNC sniper is significantly more resilient and has some nasty tricks of it's own. Flak, ice traps, the smg, the smg grapple/regular grapple juggle. As an assault I'm much more worried about approaching a sniper than I am a gunner or a tank.

Even if you integrate the time into the macro that still introduces a margin of error. Another method I believe has already been mentioned is to randomize where the center dot appears within the hip fire circle. This would demand that the sniper to do some tracking. This would also stop screen dotting which like macros is not hacking but alters what was meant to happen.

You mean MHS right?

That aside, you can generally determine the metaphysical rightness and wrongness of any action by imagining yourself in a big tournament with lots of pro gamers, big money, and a huge audience.

How would you feel about people watching you gain an edge as you smash hotkeys that no one else is using?
If you can imagine the announcer and the crowd sneering a little bit, and if you feel a bit of guilt, it is clearly cheating.

And what if all of the players are doing it?
Then you probably wont feel any glares from the audience when you do it, and you know it isnt cheating.


This pretty much applies to any issue on ethics in gaming.
Your results may vary.

As for me, I will wait until it is a feature of the game, because frankly I know that the audience would be cheapening my victory with sneers if I had abused hotkeys to get the win.
(Note that as the author of MHS, a hacking utility with all of the same capabilities as AutoIT and more, I am not just making excuses for being unable to use hotkeys. I am perfectly capable and have even considered making one to select my Assassin at match start-up in order to guarantee that I can play Assassin on servers that only allow 1 Assassin per team, but I decided against it for the aforementioned reasons.)


L. Spiro

I don't play in assassin-capped servers...

...those assassins are my free kills. Cocky punks. I farm them for my k/d. I just cannot play in a server that limits my easy kills down to 1 on the enemy team. That means I will only get 15 kills a game from assassins, instead of 60.

Btw, yes, I usually play tank lol.

Anywho, there are plenty of servers that don't cap assassin, so go there and don't waste hotkeys on such an easy thing.

He is right though, don't use hotkeys for a noticeably unfair advantage, that actually gives you a level of accomplishment in the game you didn't earn. If it handicaps you to win, it isn't fair. If it just chooses class, then it's no big deal. Buying skills wouldn't even be a problem, as long as you didn't use it to "clutch passive".

I would, however, use an "Autocomplete" for in-game messaging, only makes sense since the voice chat SHOULD work anyway, so it just comphensates for that.

I live in Japan and only ping well to a few local servers (although by well I mean < 5 ping; I have fiber 100 mbits up and down and the servers are withing miles of my place).

One of the servers I frequented had a 0 limit on snipers (which was nice) and 1 limit on Assassin, but it is since gone.


I wouldnt feel too bad about a script that made sure I got my character before anyone else (teehee), though.
And I also know that an audience watching me use hotkeys just to send chat messages such as, Thank you for the heal, would not feel bitter at the end of the match.
It is something I have seriously considered but have just been too lazy to implement it.

Instead I recommended that they add it as a feature in another thread and hope that they actually listen to player input.
A quick-chat chat menu could have other things as well, such as Ah crap! when you walk off a cliff.
Anything to make people laugh and lighten the mood.


L. Spiro

I know this has been mentioned before, but while we are on the subjects of quick-keys for chatting L-Spiro...

...you know the forums, up top at the "user control panel" and in the "my profile" section, has a "signature" feature that you can use to put something at the bottom of every one of your messages?

It is what everyone uses below that line after their message. Just noticing something that might or might not help you.

Anywho, quick-keys for chat are hard to program, but getting a program yourself that you can program "A R" to enter "Assassin on Right", would allow you to more effectively communicate without overburdening the devs.

I don't mind hotkeys as long as they don't get abused mid-battle to win every damn thing. That's when you know your cheating. Teamwork isn't cheating imo. Buying skills to get out the spawn faster isn't. Insta-buying a skill mid-gunner-battle to refill your health, you better believe that is cheating, that is almost wrong to do without a macro lmao.

also thanks for the link, i have been looking at your drawings in sheer awe