I'm no longer playing 1v1 after these games.

cdrkf · December 24, 2014

ace63 said: ↑

cdrkf said: ↑

squishypon3 said: ↑

squishypon3 said: ↑

Hmm.. are you sure? That might just be the community patch.

One sec I'll check the wiki in a bit.
Click to expand...

Nope seems I was right.

"The Targeting Facility is a level 3structure available to both the CORE and the ARM. It is very expensive to build and maintain, but when built it enables all of the player's armed units to automatically attack enemy units that are detected by radar and/or sonar regardless of vision. The CORE Targeting Facility consumes -1300 energy to stay active, while the ARM Targeting Facility uses -1250 energy."
Click to expand...

Squishy as someone *who played TA competitively online* for many years, I can tell you units *did* target radar dots by default. The Wiki is wrong, the targeting facility *improves accuracy*.

That was with the official 3.1 patch, the emg bug fix and the then current version of the clan-sy demo recorder installed (these were the standard options used for most games back around 99 - 2000 time frame).

Edit: In fact I'm going to see if I can get the old 3.1 patch and try this (it should still be knocking around on the net somewhere I'da thought)...
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Maybe... I've probably been playing Spring too long- I remember units having problems hitting radar dots though and I don't remember having to hand target each one...

Btw just trying to install TA atm (dug out my old disk)... anyone got any bright ideas how to make it install on Windows 7 64 bit?

squishypon3 · December 24, 2014

cdrkf said: ↑

ace63 said: ↑

cdrkf said: ↑

squishypon3 said: ↑

Nope seems I was right.

"The Targeting Facility is a level 3structure available to both the CORE and the ARM. It is very expensive to build and maintain, but when built it enables all of the player's armed units to automatically attack enemy units that are detected by radar and/or sonar regardless of vision. The CORE Targeting Facility consumes -1300 energy to stay active, while the ARM Targeting Facility uses -1250 energy."
Click to expand...

Squishy as someone *who played TA competitively online* for many years, I can tell you units *did* target radar dots by default. The Wiki is wrong, the targeting facility *improves accuracy*.

That was with the official 3.1 patch, the emg bug fix and the then current version of the clan-sy demo recorder installed (these were the standard options used for most games back around 99 - 2000 time frame).

Edit: In fact I'm going to see if I can get the old 3.1 patch and try this (it should still be knocking around on the net somewhere I'da thought)...
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Maybe... I've probably been playing Spring too long- I remember units having problems hitting radar dots though and I don't remember having to hand target each one...

Btw just trying to install TA atm (dug out my old disk)... anyone got any bright ideas how to make it install on Windows 7 64 bit?
Click to expand...

Try running the installer in xp service pack 3 or something.

If you can't get It I can send you my GOG installer later tonight.

Dementiurge · December 24, 2014

I've played it on v3.0a and the community 3.9 patch*, and in neither do radar get attacked. At least not in single player, which always drove me nuts because it really screwed my subs over in the naval missions.

elodea · December 24, 2014

Geers said: ↑

elodea said: ↑

First and fastest thing i learnt was that 1 fabber bot factory spam is the quickest way to lose a game now, especially because of the lower acceleration. Bombers will bomb all your mex, all your dox, all your fabber gg. And especially on Styx, 1 fabber dox spam will land you a big fat loss when people do more standard stuff like orbital plays.

Game 1 (#2775971278773788386):

You didn't get a skitter to scout early in order to see what he was doing. Neither did you scout straight away with your planes. Once you did scout however and saw he was going bot factory spam, you didnt stop producing spinners or hummingbirds.

Your first bomber was idle for a long time after scouting and did not try to attack his fabber expanding at the back or the dox swarm attacking you.

You saw his bot swarm on radar for a long time but did not position your tanks properly to deal with it

Don't build metal storage so early - also an idle fabber later.

You should not have pulled your tanks on the right flank back to defend because they would never reach there in time to do anything. They are already so far out you should move them to attack the opponents metal to take the edge off reinforcements or trade metal spots.

Didn't build walls to protect your double laser turret

Bombers idle alot again. You never rescout to see if he is going air or not. And you never try to bomb his fabbers while he has no aa whatsoever

You tried to expand with unprotected fabbers, which is not smart against someone with dox when you are playing tanks.

You continued building factories with commander when you would be at something like -100 metal on 100 metal income (200%), instead of pushing forward to build metal, walls, and turrets. And when you did decide to push, it was already too late.

You continued to try and react to dox attacks by moving your tanks from one side to the other, which never works because of how much slower tanks are. Always have your tanks in positions to defend, and counter-attack from the other side when the enemy commits everything to one side.

You didn't zone off the back of your base with either turrets or tanks to prevent dox runbys.

When you attacked his commander, you did not manually target him with your tanks to allow them to shoot over the wall. Nor the laser turrets, which again allows you to shoot over the walls

Did not have your commander in front to uber cannon the dox when they counter attack. Instead bunched up all your tanks around your commander, making them easy targets for uber cannon, and also making them unable to present full length broadsides.

You then got target fixated and attacked into the wall instead of trying to go around while defending that portion with your own walls and turrets.

Didn't recap safe metal behind your base or build turrets to protect that side when you committed everything to the other side.

General Feedback:
Throughout game 1, i saw nothing that said you lost because dox shoot air. Infact I saw the opposite, with large numbers of dox being massacred by your bombers when they wern't idle. Why you lost this game has got to do with your tank positioning, no reaction to enemy strategy, constant idle bombers, and lack of turrets and fabber protection.

Game 2 (#4199640210615974157):

Didn't scout with atleast 1 dox to see what he was doing and if he had any weak points

If you are going to do 1 fabber build, you must attack attack attack instead of idle in base untill you have a large army. This is because by right you will have bigger army than someone who does more than 1 fabber, and same ammount against someone who does only 1 like you. Attacking is a no loss situation. Only when you do more than 1 fabber would you want to play defensive like that.

Went 3 bot factories before air factory, which is basically asking to die against anyone who decides to go air as their first or second factory. This should be a very real possibility in your mind that you need to prepare for unless you scout otherwise.

You didn't scout with your fighter straight away to see if you can get away with bombers to snipe fabs.

First non-mex thing you need to build outside your base entrance is turret and walls, not a 2nd radar. You don't need to know if he is coming there or not. You need to expect it in advance.

Don't bunch up your dox like that in a ball. Look at how many of their shots miss brown's more spread out dox, and how browns dox basically miss none.

Again didn't rescout brown's base to see if he was going to build air or not. You kept building hummingbirds instead of bombers which were a waste. If you do that, you should atleast get your hummingbirds to patrol around the equator so that you will have some scouting information of where his mex is for you to kill, and where he is attacking from.

On Duat, you must attempt to secure the mex in atleast one of the 3 equatorial zones. What i mean by this is that at the very least, push only in one direction with all your units and cap all the metal in that direction. Commander pushing, turrets, and walls are your friends. You can protect your other 2 entrances with walls and turrets as well.

When you attack into his triangle, like when you did against the t2 factory, go around both sides of the mountain to maximise your entry space and minimise your exposure to angles of fire like from ubercannon. You would have taken out the t2 factory if you had done this.

Also try to attack from the other 2 sides with small groups at the same time. People will tend to try and deal with the big scary main group coming and forget about defending the other entrances.

General feedback:
After saturating your triangle mex, have at the forefront of your mind the next goal of securing one equatorial zone of metal while denying your opponent from trying to secure more than one. Every decision you make at this point should be subservient to this goal.

Don't blob your dox into assist balls because it's worse for you. Attack from multiple angles, and be more aggressive with scouting and skirmishing. Make use of bombers.

I hope you find this helpful! Goodluck!
Click to expand...

Off-topic but...
http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=257889

Was that you?
Click to expand...

yes?

burntcustard · December 24, 2014

jamiem said: ↑

Actually I've seen one awesome use of grenadiers - a handful of them behind a wall decimate pretty large attacks, including tanks.
Click to expand...

Ants have slightly longer range and faster projectile speed, I'll keep using those behind my walls. I really hope Grenadiers get a little buff soon though, and this will be one of the first things I try with them!

Alpha2546 said: ↑

Did You ever tried it sideways or from the back?
Click to expand...

I lol'd.

frostsatir said: ↑

I don't see problems with dox's AA. Their "AA" are not effective. You just need in micro with your air a liitle. Dox not "OP" i think. They are just more "universal" units than bolo/infernos and ect.,which much more effective in specific situations at the right time.
Click to expand...

I agree that Dox aren't OP, but you underestimate their anti air capabilities! If you micro the Dox it makes their AA significantly better. I believe that Dox prioritise ground units before air, so you have to attack command on bombers if you're near any enemy buildings. Spreading your Dox out with large area commands (as I did in the December Deadlock tournament against Matiz) can also help.

Geers · December 24, 2014

elodea said: ↑

Geers said: ↑

elodea said: ↑

First and fastest thing i learnt was that 1 fabber bot factory spam is the quickest way to lose a game now, especially because of the lower acceleration. Bombers will bomb all your mex, all your dox, all your fabber gg. And especially on Styx, 1 fabber dox spam will land you a big fat loss when people do more standard stuff like orbital plays.

Game 1 (#2775971278773788386):

You didn't get a skitter to scout early in order to see what he was doing. Neither did you scout straight away with your planes. Once you did scout however and saw he was going bot factory spam, you didnt stop producing spinners or hummingbirds.

Your first bomber was idle for a long time after scouting and did not try to attack his fabber expanding at the back or the dox swarm attacking you.

You saw his bot swarm on radar for a long time but did not position your tanks properly to deal with it

Don't build metal storage so early - also an idle fabber later.

You should not have pulled your tanks on the right flank back to defend because they would never reach there in time to do anything. They are already so far out you should move them to attack the opponents metal to take the edge off reinforcements or trade metal spots.

Didn't build walls to protect your double laser turret

Bombers idle alot again. You never rescout to see if he is going air or not. And you never try to bomb his fabbers while he has no aa whatsoever

You tried to expand with unprotected fabbers, which is not smart against someone with dox when you are playing tanks.

You continued building factories with commander when you would be at something like -100 metal on 100 metal income (200%), instead of pushing forward to build metal, walls, and turrets. And when you did decide to push, it was already too late.

You continued to try and react to dox attacks by moving your tanks from one side to the other, which never works because of how much slower tanks are. Always have your tanks in positions to defend, and counter-attack from the other side when the enemy commits everything to one side.

You didn't zone off the back of your base with either turrets or tanks to prevent dox runbys.

When you attacked his commander, you did not manually target him with your tanks to allow them to shoot over the wall. Nor the laser turrets, which again allows you to shoot over the walls

Did not have your commander in front to uber cannon the dox when they counter attack. Instead bunched up all your tanks around your commander, making them easy targets for uber cannon, and also making them unable to present full length broadsides.

You then got target fixated and attacked into the wall instead of trying to go around while defending that portion with your own walls and turrets.

Didn't recap safe metal behind your base or build turrets to protect that side when you committed everything to the other side.

General Feedback:
Throughout game 1, i saw nothing that said you lost because dox shoot air. Infact I saw the opposite, with large numbers of dox being massacred by your bombers when they wern't idle. Why you lost this game has got to do with your tank positioning, no reaction to enemy strategy, constant idle bombers, and lack of turrets and fabber protection.

Game 2 (#4199640210615974157):

Didn't scout with atleast 1 dox to see what he was doing and if he had any weak points

If you are going to do 1 fabber build, you must attack attack attack instead of idle in base untill you have a large army. This is because by right you will have bigger army than someone who does more than 1 fabber, and same ammount against someone who does only 1 like you. Attacking is a no loss situation. Only when you do more than 1 fabber would you want to play defensive like that.

Went 3 bot factories before air factory, which is basically asking to die against anyone who decides to go air as their first or second factory. This should be a very real possibility in your mind that you need to prepare for unless you scout otherwise.

You didn't scout with your fighter straight away to see if you can get away with bombers to snipe fabs.

First non-mex thing you need to build outside your base entrance is turret and walls, not a 2nd radar. You don't need to know if he is coming there or not. You need to expect it in advance.

Don't bunch up your dox like that in a ball. Look at how many of their shots miss brown's more spread out dox, and how browns dox basically miss none.

Again didn't rescout brown's base to see if he was going to build air or not. You kept building hummingbirds instead of bombers which were a waste. If you do that, you should atleast get your hummingbirds to patrol around the equator so that you will have some scouting information of where his mex is for you to kill, and where he is attacking from.

On Duat, you must attempt to secure the mex in atleast one of the 3 equatorial zones. What i mean by this is that at the very least, push only in one direction with all your units and cap all the metal in that direction. Commander pushing, turrets, and walls are your friends. You can protect your other 2 entrances with walls and turrets as well.

When you attack into his triangle, like when you did against the t2 factory, go around both sides of the mountain to maximise your entry space and minimise your exposure to angles of fire like from ubercannon. You would have taken out the t2 factory if you had done this.

Also try to attack from the other 2 sides with small groups at the same time. People will tend to try and deal with the big scary main group coming and forget about defending the other entrances.

General feedback:
After saturating your triangle mex, have at the forefront of your mind the next goal of securing one equatorial zone of metal while denying your opponent from trying to secure more than one. Every decision you make at this point should be subservient to this goal.

Don't blob your dox into assist balls because it's worse for you. Attack from multiple angles, and be more aggressive with scouting and skirmishing. Make use of bombers.

I hope you find this helpful! Goodluck!
Click to expand...

Off-topic but...
http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=257889

Was that you?
Click to expand...

yes?
Click to expand...

YUSSSS.

MrTBSC · December 24, 2014

one would expect to use grenadiers as light artillery for when people do build up walls ....

cdrkf · December 24, 2014

Dementiurge said: ↑

I've played it on v3.0a and the community 3.9 patch*, and in neither do radar get attacked. At least not in single player, which always drove me nuts because it really screwed my subs over in the naval missions.
Click to expand...

@squishypon3 guess I owe you an apology

<-- Old and evidently with memory problems

I think I might just buy the whole of TA again from GOG (it's like £3) if that version has a working installer...

I'm no longer playing 1v1 after these games.

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I'm no longer playing 1v1 after these games.

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