Ideas on how to balance the sniper

900 Damage for a bolt action rifle huh? Sounds balanced to me!

Since apparently you skipped it, let me quote myself from a few posts above:

Because those classes can just as easily kill you back within seconds, if not faster, if we're talking about body shots.

Vs. The Tank:

The scoped sniper rifle does 225 damage per body shot.
The Tank has 700 to 1000 default health (depending on level of passive skill)

It'll take the Sniper 4 to 5 body shots to kill a Tank.

The Tank's railgun does 149 damage.
The Sniper has 300 default health. He has no passive bonus to his health.

It'll take the Tank 3 shots to kill the Sniper.

BOTH weapons have the same exact fire rate (1.0), and the railgun is just as accurate outside of very long ranges (0.01 spread against the scope sniper's 0.0).

Blow for blow, the sniper loses. And that's his prime target.

Let's check the Gunner, even though the Gunner should be exploiting indirect damage:

Gunner has 700 default health, and no passive bonuses.
It'll take 4 body shots to kill with the sniper (225 damage per shot)

The gunner's mortar does 90 damage per mortar. Considering no gunner worth his salt uses less than lvl 2 passive at any point (and really should have lvl 3 ASAP for dual minis and triple mortars), it does around 180 - 270 damage. It takes 2 rounds of mortars to kill a Sniper.

Now, a Gunner's mortars do have a slower fire rate, 1.5, so we need additional maths (for stupid Gunners who sit there and trade blows, instead of exploiting the AoE).

So, by default, Sniper will take 4 seconds to kill a Gunner (4 shots x 1.0 fire rate). Gunner will take.... Drum roll please.... 3 seconds to kill the Sniper back (2 shots x 1.5 fire rate).

And, again, these are the sniper's PRIME targets and they both can outdamage him with body shots. Wanna check Assault too? Even though Assault should NEVER be trading blows with a Sniper due to his much higher mobility and indirect fire capacity? Sure, let's.

Assault has 500 health. It'll take the Sniper 3 shots to kill the assault (again, 225 damage per body shot).

Sniper has 300 health. Grenade Launcher does 150 damage per grenade. Takes 2 grenades to down the Sniper.

They have the same fire rate.

Again, the Sniper loses.

I didn't comment on body shots because they're a null point. All classes except Support (which, again, is equally **** against any class at a range since he has NO ranged option whatsoever) and assassin (which really shouldn't be visible at that range anyways) can outdamage the Sniper doing body shots. They also have enough time to run for cover if need be unless they were in a terribly exposed position to begin with. And lastly, all of the aforementioned except the railgun can be used from behind cover, unlike the sniper rifle.

So if you're getting killed by body shots it's your fault.

So why do people think that a sniper can fire bodyshots at people untill they die?
The way i see it, if they dont get the hell out of there after they get hit by the first bullet, then they deserve to die.

- Assault and tanks can charge out of LoS
- Assassins arent a problem (cant see them at long range)
- Gunners will die because we've all established sniper > gunner
- Support shouldnt really be where snipers can see you. For eg in ammo muel, if they are in the bot lanes / center then theyre doing something wrong and will die.
- Snipers need to take out enemy snipers asap so you cant really run if you get hit if that makes sense

I quit. I don't really care if the sniper gets changed or not, I've never been bothered by them too horribly. They only really disturb me with their grapples more than anything. But how many snipers just go for body shots? 99.9% of people will aim for headshots and just get body shots failing miserably. Being a tank and gunner have huge heads, it's difficult for them to go toe to toe with a sniper even with a mortar and railgun. You can outjump an assaults dash and can jump and navigate smart enough to avoid his bombs.

But Assaults do have the clear advantage with the machine gun at close range. Although, I've taken down mediocre assaults with the sniper rifle at point blank range while they are cruising around on their jetpack. I just bounce around like a fiend. The sniper is surprisingly nimble and his skinny frame makes him an extremely tough target to hit. Plus, a high sensitivity makes tracking ultra easy.

Haha, if I drag my mouse from one end of my mouse pad to the other, my character spins 10 times. I set that for every game as it makes watching my back incredibly easy and snap aiming cake.

And here comes the ego.
Okay.
Pushing a Sniper from his spot is not the be-all end-all of not being pwned by a Sniper.
That should be goddamned obvious. If you allow him to build up money through streaks and freefarming, you're a tard.

Yeah I can dig that.

Are you serious?
Read what you said, then what I said again.
I don't know what you just said there, but I don't need bombs, or the Sniper explained to me.
He requires pin point precision? Well hot damn! Not like I haven't been saying that all this time!

What I'm saying is that I could master each class (within human ability) and none that would compare to me learning to snap shot as a Sniper. That's not just a "Well la dee da! People get better, what are you going to do?"
That's a bit of a problem.

Who died and made you Mickey Cantor?
Also I'm really hoping you did detect the sarcasm there. If you didn't, I don't have much left for you.

Actually no, the Sniper doesn't appear to take movement penalty when zoomed in.
You can walk, strafe - and even jump while having pinpoint precision!

Now, I don't have a screenshot of this, or video footage - but I have been able to occassionally jump and headshot moving opponents at times. Hell, I've killed an Assault after he grappled me out of the ring - but yeah. Possible - and I assume that as people get better at Sniper, it'll become a little more common.

I suppose that yes, I could work on my approaching Snipers?
But, that said, you can't justify balance by saying "You have to be better".
Example - we could give the Sniper 7000 HP and being better wouldn't have much to do with it.

lol, you're talking about stable variables - when discussing completely randomised matches with completely random players with completely random levels of skill?
Are you joking?
Like no seriously.

For all we know, you've been playing braindead Snipers, while I've been playing against Chuck Norris.
So yeah umm, tell me about those "stable variables" again, as if they're science. I do love me a laugh.

Come on man, you're better than this.

Well hold on now - do you know the difference between Projectile and Hitscan weapons?
I dunno, seems a little important.
I hope I don't have to explain why.

Though, the Tank's railgun - sure thing.
I find that as Tank I can often nullify the encounter yes... well, against most Snipers. The good ones that are just like BAM HEADSHOT make me sadface. << NOT A COMPLAINT BTW. I ACCEPT THAT SNIPERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO HEADSHOT TANKS.

Yeah. Whatever.

You seem to live in a fantasy where Snipers just stand still when they're in danger just munching on nades - and when you do force them out of their spot they take a 5 minute breather before attacking again.

Also, yes, human skill has limitations - but we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what PC Snipers will be able to do in MNC.
You can't assume that Snipers are going to only be as skilled as they are now forever.

Not really, most other games properly reward headshots - and people are successful.
Most Sniping classes/weapons are balanced based on the idea that Sniping is hard sure, but the defence gained from outranging everyone pays it off.

That said, the Sniper has loads of tools that make him much more than the average Sniper in your average video game. He has a good SMG, great Area Denial with Flak and Ice Traps - and Ice Traps can even be used to set up kills rather than protect you.

I seem to do fairly well as Sniper with minimal body shot based kills, and many instances of a single-shot-kill...

So maybe I'm ahead of the curve.

Well, I hope you do understand that, the Sniper's capability is far greater than the other class'... like, if you go away understanding that, I'll be satisfied.
Also please understand that it's only what.... 2 or so weeks post release? Assassins are still face grappling Tanks.
And one particular class has a lot more room to move than the others.

Yes? Hopefully?

Anyway - as said, I'm judging Snipers a little further in the future - and you seem to be only judging the crappy pub ones we have now.
When people get better and some good snipers from other games decide to give MNC a shot I suppose we can come back to this - but for now I guess it would be perhaps a little too early to nerf the class.

The last thing I'd like to add to the topic: if snipers were considered balanced on the xbox, than I'd really like to know why the tank and gunner got a pc specific nerf (the jets) while the sniper only got a nerf on his traps (which really doesn't have much to do with pc or xbox). Everyone agrees that snipers are much, MUCH better with mouse+keyboard than with a controller.

So if the Xbox sniper was balanced, isn't that alone a warrant for a pc specific nerf? Especially considering that the tank and gunner got one? Again, don't give me the trap nerf thing, that really has nothing to do with it. It pretty much only affected assassin vs. sniper balance.

Gonna quote myself here with the cheat-sheet to Sniper Counter so people can stop arguing

That's all any of us are saying. If the Xbox sniper is balanced with the controller. Than the far superior mouse+keyboard should sky rocket it beyond any other form of awesome. A mouse and keyboard is still better than holding the damn rifle in your hands. You can't instantly do 10 circles just by moving your hand, can you?

...
All I got outa that long post was "I am capable of-" and "I find it super E.Z to-". Appeared like a really long brag post without much point in it. :|
If you are that good, you are not the average level of a pub player.

If I recall correctly, they also lowered the ammo count on the Sniper Rifle.
Not that it actually changes the balance of the weapon too much... it makes body shot kills more difficult though.

Well I didn't mean for it to sound like that - but I suppose I am decent for a pub player.
That said, I admit that I do have a lot of trouble with good Snipers.

The main area where I do suppose I talk myself up is the way in which I manage to dodge grenades and mortars. Even from good players. And I can often do it while firing at them. It seems to be a pretty crazy idea right now.
I don't think that'll be exclusive to me soon though.

It's not exclusive to you, you say you don't mean to sound presumptuous but in the very same post you do it again.

The ammo count has been reduced by quite the amount and it does indeed help the bodyshots if people insist to stay in LoS as heavy class they deserve to be shot like that.

It's not like they don't know that they'll end up dead by playing that recklessly.

Well I *am* the best player to grace Monday Night Combat ever.

I was having a joke. Come on. It was taking a jab at all the people who are like "looool naeds!!"

So for the pc they nerfed the bodyshotting and botkilling capability of the sniper, but left the headshotting capabillity intact? Errr... That hardly seems like a relevant pc specific nerf to me, tbh. It's scoring headshots that's so much more easy on the pc than it is on the xbox. And reducing the clipsize does not really do much in that respect.

Headshots are here to stay.

^

Are you deliberately not reading what I'm saying? I never suggested that headshots should be removed.

^

coz i can

Reducing RoF -> Impair Bot slaying
Reduce Clipsize even more -> Impair Bot slaying and shift the focus to Reload Speed
Introduce Scope sway -> won't help a single bit

Come on mate, give us a decent fix and I'd be all for it but all you guys are doing is slinging uneducated dirt at each other.

If there was an easy fix to the Sniper issue on PC we would have it by now, unfortunately for you (the discussing lot) there isn't and things like "add inherent 200ms delay before scoring a headshot" won't stop people getting easy and many headshots either.

Instead of trying to blame the killing potential of the Sniper you should blame your deficit in positioning.

I already proposed a solution to that: Reducing rof and increasing damage vs bots (and possibly bodyshot damage) to compensate.

*edit* and to my big frustration, not a single sniper seemed to have grasped or discussed my point to any appreciable extend. I'm really not as much of a sniper hater as you may think I am.

lawl, in what way was anyone sucking up to grimbar?
Agreeing with people doesnt mean youre sucking up to them...