Ideas on how to balance the sniper

Most every sniper I see has a KDR hovering around .5 and has contributed absolutely nothing to his team. Just like assassins.

I put out the same scores and KDR playing support as I do sniper, while still managing to support and heal my team.

Is support OP too?

I'm just quoting people from that thread. I don't think it requires two people to coordinate with each other to kill a Sniper. It takes one person who knows how to flank to flank the Sniper and kill him, he's already naturally distracted taking shots at your teammates who are unwittingly "coordinating" with you simply by being targets.

People often blow everything out of proportion. No, it's not possible to cover LITERALLY HALF of a map from any single position on any map. Yes, any other class can absolutely stomp a pub. Why is it hard to fathom that new players simply don't understand the concept of staying out of the line of fire? I just played a game where someone was ALWAYS advancing beyond is bot wave and CONSTANTLY getting fragged. I'm sure he's made a forum post somewhere here about something being BS.

And I don't find it hard at all to communicate with other players in pubs to get some coordination going. This is a class based team game and coordination is key. Just because pub v pub with no coordination on either side exists doesn't mean that CLASS X is suddenly outrageously unbalanced because they can take advantage of idiots from further away than any other class. Believe me when I say that it's JUST as easy to kill the noobs who wander out into lanes of fire as Assault as it is Sniper.

Let me put it this way -- the Sniper's job is to ZONE you. The fact that you walk into his zone and instantly die is not unbalanced, it's WORKING AS INTENDED. Don't let crummy Snipers who suck at zoning give you a false impression of what the class is actually supposed to function like and what's balanced and what's not. In fact, that's pretty much the same reason you don't listen to crummy scrubs when they play this game for three days and come to the forums to whine about something that owns the crap out of them, which is basically 95% of the movement behind "SNIPERS ARE OP" based upon the thread you linked earlier.

Give credit to peoples intellect. Personnaly, I do not rage even getting repetedly killed by the same player. I just tell myself I need to change something. The problem with Sniper is that the changes required to prevail do not suit the definition of balance at all- ex: get a buddy and gank him.

Very interesting point. This is called a paradox. I wrote 20 pages ago, that I believe that the art of Sniping has a difficulty of above average (you can still find that if you care). Well, this only demonstrates one thing: there are very few parameters that define your skill as Sniper. In fact, there is only one - how good are you at pointing your dot on other players heads. If you're bad at it, you're bad Sniper overall and vice versa. The movement skills, space orientation and combination of special abilities come only in second place with this toon, at close range combat and only marginally impact the K in KD ratio.

On the support being OP, I thought that for a while when I always played him. I've pinned down teams singlehandedly with support. He has two very reliable ways of quickly killing people while remaining safe, he can hack enemy turrets and effectively shut down the enemy spawn.

With the airstrike and shotty I was able to kill everyone who got near me, I managed to get a turret up at the enemy moneyball and hack it and just watch everyone die.

Does this mean support is OP? NO this means the people I was fighting were idiots and couldn't get their **** together and stop me.

On more then one map, a sniper can zone a huge area. Grenade 3, Spunky Cola, Steel Peel if his team owns the middle, all these maps can be defined by a single amazing sniper in the right spot.

Zoning a huge area is nowhere near "half the map". The arches on Grenade 3 for example offer astoundingly awesome amounts of cover that still allow you to push the lane aggressively without giving a Sniper a shot on you. The challenge most players find is that they forget they can use bots themselves as cover from Snipers, and if you tuck away with the bot wave to move up to the next arch on Grenade 3 then you'll be a-okay. Also, those pieces of see thru glass on top of the arches are absolute death traps for Snipers to stand behind because you can ricochet grenades in there and frag the sniper with very little effort. The "sniper perch" in the middle is easily flanked by running along the inner wall to their side and floating over to the perch from the wall as Assault.

I think you misunderstood my post somewhat, or perhaps i missed out an important part...

Yes, aiming is a obviously a key point to the snipers skill level, and no matter how well you play if you cant get that part down your playing the wrong class, but that is NOT the only factor in what makes a GOOD sniper...

A good sniper will know when hes being flanked, he will know where to place his traps, predict the assaults movements to trap him, for example, i know that any good assault will automatically hit fly at the top of a jump pad to avoid my ice traps, so placing my trap at the top of the pad is pointless, but hovering in midair leaves him open to attack so he will then search for cover, so he darts in behind the nearest cover to start his LoS abuse, IE, bomb spam, nade bouncing, or to simply let his fly ability recharge, and its there behind the cover that he will find himself frozen with a level 3 flak bashing him in the head.

THAT is the difference between a good sniper and a bad, the ability to predict other players movements, to keep track of both lanes at once so that you know which one needs your help pushing forewards, trap placement, sniping perches that leave you the least exposed, NOT getting tunnel visioned...


The list goes on and on, and ofcourse many many of these 'skills' will apply directly to the other classes, which is why this thread is sort of... off... in its idea of snipers, as most of the posts seem to think of the sniper as a 2 dimensional character standing at the back pointing and clicking for 15 minutes, whereas a skilled sniper will be pushing forewards, blocking off escape routes with flak, actively trapping the enemy, flakking down turrets... etc etc.

Thats why you dont see the crappy snipers hiding at the back and the illusion of, all snipers are op and need nerfing is cast, good snipers will be in your face, pestering constantly, like a facegrappling assassin but with some skill, a bad sniper will be a mere thorn in your side that, with any kind of forethought of planning can be avoided or taken down without to much hassle.



<End Rant>

Coord I'm not sure how that rant is helping your argument. Am I misunderstanding you or are you essentially saying the sniper can deal with an attacker up close, and still dominate mercilessly at range?

Add all those skills to a player who can headshot repeatedly and reliably at range, and how do you beat that?

Just as you demonstrated you can argue heart and soul on the same topic in opposing directions within a couple days (I actually think your previous opinion made sense), the same way I get a feeling I could argue endlessly against what you say now.

I could argue that half the map is only slightly exaggerated term, and trust your sense of understanding of what Im talking about without drawing you pictures.

I could argue that the class is somehow unbalanced exactly because if there is a lack of coordination it can make such a huge difference solo.

I could argue that literally stepping one foot into a wide and unscoped, at that moment, line of sight and dying in a second is not ok without any possibility of dodging. That its not about LoS actually, but how fast it is possible to headshot from the moment of being seen.

I could argue that I still see you do not want to understand the difference between the players experience (which of course matters to improve things) and the potential of the class (which is a little further than that) I am only speaking about the latter here. I cannot get clearer.

I could argue that most of the experienced Snipers I could read, just childishly fear their toy of destruction is going to be taken away from them and that their arguments are not worth anything else.

And so on.. but you would just tell me otherwise. Were going nowhere. :roll:

Basically, peoples view of snipers is that they simply stand at the back spamming shots across the map, what im saying is that, the sniper is alot more mobile than that, ofcourse he cant go toe to toe with a gunner, but the idea that the only thing that seperates a good sniper and a bad sniper is their ability to hit headshots is just wrong, clever use of skills will allow a sniper to fight at closer ranges ofcourse, just like the mortars will allow the gunner and assault to fight at long range, certainly not as effective as getting in with the minigun but workable nonetheless.

Something I wouldn't mind considering what they do for gunner and tank is like when they deploy have a quick animation of scoping in.

edit: This would eliminate close range quickscopes and force the sniper to rely on his other devices for close range protection.

I would just add 1 point however, gunners deploy 3, making him immune to headshots, In my opinion when they cancel this ability the immunity should last for 3-4 seconds after they regain mobility, because currently a deployed gunner has a choice versus a sniper, sit there and take the bodyshots, or try to undeploy which will lift the mask while you are still imobalised and wait for the headshot anyway, so that could definatley use a fix.

thank you for taking the bait no wonder the snipers you see are so easy to counter.

Sigmars, it basically comes down to what skill level you balance for. Using SC2 for an example it's balanced around high level competitive play. Balance is pretty "topsy tervy" at the lower leagues, with Protoss having a significant edge over other races due to how "turtle for an hour then finally move out with a giant army" friendly the race is, which is almost what every single noob does.

I could go on, but the point has already been made, and it's easy to relate back to MNC. New players simply don't understand how to avoid the dangers of the Sniper. Whether or not a good player can enter a pub and solo dominate with a Sniper more than any other class is, to be honest, of little concern to me, because that pub does not represent a realistic scenario on how the game is "meant" to be played. If everyone is pushing the lane, working together, playing as a team, spreading the class selection out, then Snipers aren't OUTRAGEOUSLY powerful. They're balanced. They're easy to uproot from their perches by Assaults and Assassins who know how to approach them. You can easily observe their position and simply stay out of their line of fire. If it means you can't advance any further and you have to maintain the lane here until the Sniper is dealt with, then you don't push any further, whereas new players are bull headed and think much more linearly and stubbornly continue to step into the kill zone.

So there is no reason to balance Snipers around people who don't understand all of the play concepts surrounding MNC.

A good player of every class will destroy you, a bad player of every class will get roflstomped.

Welcome to what we, in the business, call "balance".

So what you're saying is that, as a Sniper learns how to headshot more reliably, with a Rate of Fire of more that one bullet a second, and quickscoping becomes a very reliable skill, they get worse comparatively to other classes?

Hmm.

Or conversely, as other classes get better so does their ability to dodge. ;p

Yes, they don't. However, this is again and again and again an off-topic. I don't have a problem with the dangers of the Sniper concept personally and I am not the voice of the "new players complaining syndicate". I have a problem with some of its mechanics which have been explained enough times. Let me rephrase: do you understand the difference between the "dangers of the Sniper" and "Snipers mechanics" or is it the same thing to you ? The former adresses the general understanding of the game and player experience and the latter adresses the capacity of the class.

You know, it doesn't matter that you're right with what you say as loooooong as you do not reply on topic I address.

The more realistic scenario is to understand that the PUB represents the vast majority of matches. Then who cares what is meant to be. We live in practice not in theory. A multiplier game which lives through time has its share of fixed players and a share of flowing, incoming noobs and leaving veterans. Things can only get better to a plateau point. A the moment noobs stop arriving, the game is basically ending its lifetime.
And the last sentence ? Read my previous paragraph.

cheers.

:| ...
I don't know how many times this has been said by people AGAINST the sniper, but it sure shows up more than once every page, and still they claim not to have a problem with the sniper...

Do I sense a hidden contradiction somewhere among these claims?
Probably not.

I do have a problem with the Sniper.
His Sniper Rifle is stupidly capable and is quite obviously OP.
Anyone who can't see it is dense - and likely a terrible Sniper. Le fin.

Dodging hit scan gets much harder as the Sniper gets better.
I'm never going to claim that good Snipers will never miss a shot - but if you think about how many opportunities they will have as you move out against them, and how fast their Sniper Rifle fires - with a good Sniper you will have pretty dodgy chances.

Over the last few days I've been training up my Sniping as I figure, hey, if no-one believes that good Snipers exist, I might as well prove them wrong myself - and you wouldn't believe how many Assaults I've killed within charging range (either before they get to charge, or after jumping over it). Even been quickscoping Gunners within grapple range with alarming accuracy.

Then, even if they do de-seat me, they usually get caught in an ice trap or cannot come closer due to them - so I kill them (or my team does) and I go right back to my spot - spamming ice traps at the enemy base.

I'm actually starting to think I don't want Snipers to be nerfed - it's fun being stupidly hard to kill while racking up 2-3 kills a minute easily.
But that said, I believe in fairness more than my own personal gain.