Ideas on how to balance the sniper

if you say so

The fact that you even claim that Quake 3 is "all about the railgun" really makes me wonder about what you define as "being good".

A solid and well timed armor/mega-health run will beat aim 9 out of 10 times.. Even in Quake 2 where the railgun was much more solid than in Quake 3.

Go watch the old Thresh vs Immortal 1998 PGL Quake 2 demos and you will understand what i mean, specially the last match in the PowerTrip map. Hell, watch any old Thresh/Sujoy QuakeWorld demo and learn about what a good strategy and prediction can achieve over aim and even raw skill.

Good players adapt, or at least they did.

I gotta be honest with you man, almost every post i have seen from you is some sort of complain about something that kills you.

i said sniper needs harder time makin headshots.. and sin might need to have grapple/lunge looked at..

and neither kill me much, I main assault..

they are observations.

and are you gonna sit here and deny railgun was a controlled weapon in quake 3? or 2?

really?

meh

I have enough experience in Quake games to say, "Yes". Especially in Quake 2 where you had the vicious RL/CG combo, or the SSG that could literally gib you in one or two close shots.

If you are getting railgunned constantly even while being 100/100 (Armor and health in case you don't understand), then you have a problem.

Look, the railgun is a powerful weapon very dangerous when in good hands, but if you really want to use an example of imbalanced weapons then you should point you emotions to QuakeWorld's Rocket Launcher, but then i would have to explain to you why imbalance is good on that game for competitive values, and i don't think your mind could understand that.

Anyhow, this is beyond the point and i have said mine. I'm outta here.

yeah see yeah

I've returned to this topic!

You may remember me as the noob from page 21 and 22.

I take back what I said -- Sniper's fine.

The main problem with Sniper is the fact that he requires players to not play like a ****ing idiot in order to avoid getting killed by him over and over again.

I mean, it's like it suddenly dawned on me one day. Holy crap, this game shares SO many elements of DotA and I've been ignoring all of them in favor of habitual FPS playstyles!

Noobies, STOP! Let's go down the DotA protip list:

-Stay alive
-Push the lane
-Stay alive
-Don't feed
-Don't die
-Stay alive
-Hey stop dying

Has it been made clear yet? As soon as I made my #1 goal in MNC to not die my game experience improved DRAMATICALLY. I identify threats and I stay the **** away from them. I don't chase after greedy kills and let low health opponents go once they retreat back into their territory. I focus on the bots, not the players, and only take players out when they become targets of opportunity while I'm pushing the lane. If there is a sniper, I identify his position, I warn my team, and I stay out of his line of sight. While I would most certainly LOVE to curb stomp him, my job is first and foremost not to die, because respawning means I have to take time to run back to the front, the lane gets pushed, and the enemy tightens their stranglehold on the lane, which makes the Sniper's job even easier.

PROTIP: The counter to snipers is pushing the lane. The more distance a sniper has between him and you, the more powerful he is. If you keep the lane pushed on his side, that distance is cut dramatically, and he's forced to pull back to a less optimal position to be safe or risk holding down at the front as a now-valid target for closer classes.

God damn this game kicks ***. I have been FACEROLLING pubs now that I've put my own personal security at the top of my to-do list, and as soon as you do the same, you'll stop being so pissed about Snipers and Assassins.

So this is me, confessing my sins as a noob. I'm sorry.

But now you're just playing for KDR and not the team etc lolololLlOlOLOL1!!1ONE

(Somebody is bound to say it sooner or later)

No, but it shouldn't. Headshots are a part of the game, and require skill to pull off.
Sure, being headshotted sucks - but they're not the issue with the Sniper.

I don't even want to remove Quick Scoping - even though many developers frown upon it and deliberately try to remove it.

Hell, I don't even want him to be slowed down while zoomed in - which is a staple of most Sniping weapons/classes in modern games. I actually love the Sniper's mobility - and to be sure that he is useful at high levels of play, I want it to stay that way.

Lowered Rate of Fire:
- makes accuracy more important, rather than abusing the Rifle's high rate of fire with just spamming for possible headshots.
- gives players who do successfully dodge a shot (or get body shot) a bit more time to get out before killing blows from the entire map away become a real threat.
- penalise the Sniper for a miss by actually making him wait for his next shot.
- limit the effects that quick scoping will bring to the competitive metagame when players become more reliable. Yes, they will be able to quick scope - they will still own, but, they won't be headshotting several separated players in a matter of seconds.
- slightly lowers the Sniper's close quarter defences. Yes, the Sniper will still probably get able to get a shot off - and if they're skilled, it could easily win the battle (whether it be headshot or bodyshot), but if they miss that shot, they will lose ground and time quickly.

To me, an adequate nerf to RoF would be perfect, at least for now. The Sniper would still be fine - he can still use quickscoping, he can still do everything as he did before, there would just be a little more room for other classes to move and approach, and the Sniper would be focussed on headshots and timely bodyshots, rather than spamming around the general shoulder area for a lucky headshot.

Of course, to compensate him for the loss of RoF when dealing with bots and turrets, it would be great if his damage versus bots and turrets could be increased - and to give him another angle to play on, maybe even a slight general damage buff for the SMG - especially over range?

My approach is very similar as far as objectives are concerned. Lane pushing is a top priority. But what you describe here is somewhat defensive. I cannot help but picture you barely crossing half the map most of the time being mostly aware of that Sniper. I learned one thing in pubs: defence doesnt win games, there has to be someone pushing the front and stomping on enemy base asap. Putting pressure which obliges the enemy to retreat therefore moving the whole front forward. How many times I could reach and destroy a turret with the first bot wave. (There are mid-game exceptions and in organised games with a majority of advanced guys its a different story, but its a minority it has been said a thousand times here.)

The point is, you cannot do that with a good sniper around at all. You cannot allow yourself to spend time in open air, you cannot hide behind bots, you cannot strafe your *** out of these shots. Were speaking about 3 seconds to death. Yes, the Sniper is then doing his job perfectly. It is just a tiny tiny bit too easy : me doing random dodging left, left, right, left, jump, charge, left, right, headshot -with an assault, is hard to take as normal, in my opinion. If I run in a straight line, hell, Ill kill myself first.

Sigmars, the maps are made so that you can push the lanes while being covered from Sniper positions. The Assault's grenade launcher has a long enough range that I can push lanes while tucked away behind cover. Rarely are you FORCED into a Sniper's lane of fire.

Surviving against Snipers has a lot to do with how well you understand the map. Knowing where all of the typical Sniper roosts are is a very very key factor in playing well. Once you know where all of the usual spots are you'll find yourself dying far less often to Snipers, just like when you started listening for Assassin cloak.

Also, if you start to flank a Sniper, and he sees you, and starts focusing on trying to keep you pinned down, guess what he isn't doing? Zoning the lane OR pushing the lane (which denies him farm). The simple action of being aggressive -- even if its a mile away -- stops the Sniper from doing his job entirely because he has to focus on YOU or else you'll flank him and kill him. The second he goes back to trying to zone and snipe on the lane rather than keeping an eye on you you're free to push up and get closer to him. He's also not farming bots while worrying about you, while classes like Assault (the main man for pressuring a sniper) has weapons at his disposal which allow him to push the lane from cover (throwing bombs over walls onto bot lanes below, bouncing grenades off of walls, etc).

Countering Snipers requires very methodical positioning on the part of the Sniper's attacker, and this methodical play is something that's VERY foreign to most FPS games out there, at least at the pub level. The fact that you even mention "random dodging" to me tells me that you simply aren't playing against the Sniper correctly. You shouldn't have to randomly dodge, because you shouldn't be in his line of sight, it honestly is that simple.

I main Assault and I can tell you from recent experience that Snipers are very easy to deal with if you understand the map layout and what routes are safe and what routes aren't, especially with the mobility of the Assault class (charging between cover when you have to briefly cross into the Sniper's line of fire makes you basically impossible to hit). Don't be afraid to take an extra 10 seconds to go the long way if it means you can get right up on the Sniper and root him out.

fischbs, yes, it can be done. You can work harder and smarter and you die less. Does it really help the issue? The problem remains that the whole involvement you suggest to flank a Sniper and deny him the possibly to farm is far more time consuming for yourself than for him.

It is not efficient.

You have to cross the map in a sneaky way certainly abandoning pushing yourself (while he still does), you arrive there possibly damaged, and face only a 50% chance of killing him because he will defend himself and is well equipped to do so and that is normal. Finally, if you lose and repeat, your inefficiency is exponential for the team. This finally is if you play Assault and move decently fast. You already know how it works for the heavyweights. Also, since you speak about maps, there are a couple, like Steel Peel, which bring it to another level of investment not worth it.

That is why I speak about random dodging, which seems just about fair, right? But like I said, all you hear is *zip zip* and youre dead. The graphics and sound often indicate you have been missed, yet still a chunk of life is gone.

I really do not have the intention to whine but be as constructive as possible. Generally, the game experience is not damaged by this subject because you dont face an expert Sniper every time.. yet. You dont necessarily face a Sniper at all. I just went through 7 rounds and only one matched the description of the problem.

Get the point: when you face such opponent however, who exploits the class to its maximum, in his due right of course, it makes you think beyond the talent of the player, simply because no other class ravages the pros to that extent. And that is it.

cheers

Sniping is fine.
Complaining about being HS by one is like complaining about being backstabbed by an Assassin.

Do people honestly get fragged by them again and again and again?

Yes, they do, because I sniped a lot in the beginning I know they do, not so much now because guess what, dun dun dun dun, people have stopped being so utterly useless.

I like snipers, they're a free frag like an Assassin in 99% of cases and the 1% who aren't are guess what?

Skilled and deserve their success, people do know you're allowed to be successful right?

Sniping is so fine that take look at that topic going on in Strategy and Tactics subforum :

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=7319&start=0

How convenient. You may of course call the OP a noob and tell him that the solution to his problem is to get better (how brilliant)... so on and so forth.
What you must admire though, is the rest of the crowd which, if you read, quickly admits that beyond some level of experience you're facing you can't do jack about that, or that the solution may be to avoid half of the map or to team up with someone wearing your colors to take out specifically one player... during a PUB. Ridiculous.

Sigmars you don't always have to dislodge a Sniper is the point I'm trying to make, simply stay out of his lane of fire. I'm saying its POSSIBLE to do, dislodging one, and while you're doing it, the Sniper isn't getting any farm either because he's too worried about protecting himself from your attack. The fact that you take time to find a round about route (about ten extra seconds or so) neutering your farm doesn't take into consideration that if you make a successful flank, its not a 50% chance to kill the Sniper, it's almost guaranteed because they're made of soggy tissue paper. When the Sniper is down you not only have free reign to push the lane and farm all the money you missed, but the Sniper's position is dislodged and he has to respawn and return to his position, which is approximately the same amount of time it takes to find a round about flank path against him.

There is no severe gap in efficiency between the classes.

As far as the topic you linked is concerned, two level 70 players pub stomping isn't proof of anything. They could be any class and still dominate. I seriously doubt those two Snipers were contested at all by the enemy at any point in time during the match. I seriously doubt that anyone made a real effort to identify their positions and stay out of their line of fire while still pushing their lane from cover. Those Snipers probably sat through the entire game, chewing through bot lanes from their perch, raking in disgusting amounts of farm, fragging noobs, and leveled their skills far higher than anyone on the opposing team.

Yeah, the solution is to get better and not be such a noob. Do these opinions mean nothing in that thread either? --

"They key is to not get in his line of sight, get someone to distract him and then strike. Or just gangbang them with 2 or more assassins."

"Depending on maps really, if the opposing Sniper is moderately good, I can harass him, stress him or force him to back off with bombs and such things. If the Sniper is godly I either try to walk up behind him (avoiding traps of course) and fill him with boolets/toss him out of the arena, or just plain ignore him and go for another route and do objectives out of his sight." (omg!!)

"If you are a heavy[gunner] class just push the lane the sniper is not covering, let the sin deal with the sniper or ask the sin in team chat to kill him. Triple mortar on the sniper spot is very effective."

The fact that there are more opinions against the Sniper has nothing to do with the Sniper being OP and everything to do with people ragequitting and making a beeline for the forums rather than figuring the problem out for themselves. Is it not obvious by the post count of everyone whining versus the post count of people disagreeing? Not to weigh post count as experience, but it is PROOF that people shoot off of a game hot headed, make an account, and then proceed to type out a huge rant while they're all pissed.

Hell I was one of those people making a beeline and you can actually SEE how my attitude has changed over the course of the thread. It's not because someone bribed me, it's because I took my head out of my *** and stopped walking into obvious lanes of fire.

Are there totally awesome Snipers that dominate servers single handedly? Of course. But any other class can stomp a pub if played well just as hard. Good Snipers are just great at punishing you for stepping into their lane of fire, ie better at zoning (completely denying any area for fear of getting headshotted) than crappy Snipers who miss.

"A sniper that's better than me or my terrible pub team is killing me!"

Grats, he's supposed to.

Also note that the "rest of the crowd" is basically the same crowd of people complaining about snipers in this thread, largely.

interesting observation:

new players love to play the assassin and the sniper, but what do you see failing the most? the assassin or the sniper?

if the sniper was balanced, then you should see both classes failing just as often, but that is just not the cause because sniper is just that much easier to play than the assassin.

most of the shooters I have played, for the most part, the new guys start out with the sniper, and the reason is pretty obvious.

The best thing that comes to mind, is simply no. No, other classes do not dominate in that way. No matter the hands they're in. That is where the argumentation stops and gets binary. Either you've never met such player either I had bad luck facing several aimbots.

Yes they do, BUT, please for the love of the moneball, understand that it is not about experience here. I didn't like the Assassin first, till i learned to play. I can play different classes and counter them, sometime a good player rapes me, but I don't get that feeling as with vs good Sniper.

I really like the first post of Page 5 of the thread I posted. Read it. It gives you an idea. I recently play more Tank than Assault. I want to play Tank on all maps, but I hate to play Tank on Steel Peel, Gren 3 and Spunky if a good Sniper is around. If you were to make a table matrix this would not apply to any other class or map.

Get back to reality, you know you're talking about PUBS ? Half the time people communicate in those games is to insult someone or to say gg. BUT EVEN IF, how can you say it is a solution to counter one class with two or more ?

Its all good. You changed your mind. Only idiots never change their minds. I however, have thought it through and keep mine as it is since a couple weeks. This doesn't make me an idiot either.

Again, this is not true. Any other class cannot shut down half the map on their own. Period. I play since late December beta, and left both Assassin and Sniper behind because I appreciate all other classes more. During this thread though I played a couple times. I totalled 29 rifle kills of out which 21 headshots. I must be so good. Or ?

I see terrible snipers failing all the time on the scoreboard, but they will be far less visible, firstly because there are less of them than sins, and secondly because bad snipers will basecamp, likely get less than 10 kills and the good snipers will counter them so hard they will barely do anything.


Also lets not forget that you know a bad sin is bad because he stabs you in the face, how do you know if theres a bad sniper... If he misses you wont know about it, and if he hits you will scream "OMG OP NOOB OMG".


The only way to tell a bad sniper is to look at the scoreboard at the end of the game, and i doubt very much you will look down the bottom at the terribad snipers and think to yourself "Hm, look at that, bad players sucking even at an 'OP' class" because that would completely undermine your entire arguement.