Ideas on how to balance the sniper

LOL

that wasnt attack, it was a rewording.

Here is a video i just put together from a random pub game a few minutes ago.

I do agree my movements in this video are very predictable, but my options seemed very limited. my team had 3-5 players during the few minutes i spent in this game, none of them were able to leave our spawn. There were two or three enemy assassins waiting to "clean up" anything that popped out of the spawn points or hanging out in the shadows.

I know I let some things slide in the below video, like other enemy classes in our spawn, but for the purpose of the video, I was just trying to focus on the sniper, trying to show that if you have your eye over there, the guy in the other direction can now seize the opportunity.

the sniper had over 50 kills by the time i left, and the game was not even in overtime yet.

also, notice the distance he is from me, i consider that to be "mid-range" the range in which the class I was playing should be decent at or better then the sniper, but it doesn't work like that I guess now does it.

I don't claim to be a great player, nor an above average player yet. I know I'm fairly new and still in the learning process.

But when you are done watching this lvl 28ish sniper dismantle my entire team, and you still feel its "balanced" then there is no hope. We should not have to change classes during the match just to be able to have any fun.

Like many others out there, I enjoy playing gunner the most, but when I come up against a sniper like this.....my best chance at having fun is to just change servers.

This is a game for having fun isn't it? You would think most games are. But one thing is for sure, if nothing changes, this game will never ever see its full potential as some players will just up and leave all because one class ruins the fun of the game for them.

[youtubehd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0YW5JvKw6s[/youtubehd]

(if the above did not work, here is a direct link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0YW5JvKw6s

LOL

I stopped watching after you went to the same damn area he was guarding twice in a row.

Hugely predictable. Why didn't you go round to the right and come up behind him. Or better yet, ignored him and just continued the fight elsewhere.

I find when I'm against a good sniper I tend to just fight in an area he isn't watching or is unable to watch. Snipers always seem to get good KDR because all they do is hide and kill players. When I see a sniper getting 30+ kills I don't consider them a "good" player. When I see anyother class getting the same score in the heat of the action, then I consider them good players.

However, on a side note. His sniper gun is firing REALLY fast. I'm guessing Gold RoF? That seems far too quick to me.

good for you, glad you picked up on me trying to show different options.

option 1: exit spawn and go directly to him= boom headshot
option 2: exit spawn and go out the other big doorway= greeted by a hoard of bots + at least 2 sins and an assault that cant be ignored, if i managed to get through it, once im back out in the open heading for the launchpad....boom headshot.
option 3: exit spawn try and go the side way out (to the left), boom headshot before i could get to the small hallway.
option 4: exit spawn and try and use jetpack to hover just over the glass to use a prespun mini (not upgraded to duals cause i just got in the game)= boom headshot
option 5: try and use jetpack to get just high enough to shoot over the glass with mortar gun = boom headshot after slight miscalculation of height. try again, succeed ---> leave server cause that was not worth the effort.

@ going to the right: i did, see above posts.

and i did not ignore him because then how can i put together a video showing how dominate a sniper is.

You realize theres more than one exit from spawn? Also if you're a gunner and can't take two assassins you don't deserve the chance to kill that sniper.

LOOK GUYS WHEN I RUN IN FRONT OF A SNIPER HE KILLS ME. THIS MEANS SNIPER IS OP

edit: make a video of you actually playing with no edits to show how much impact sniper has on the game

You could have easily went out right side, take jumpad, then destroy that pesky sniper who's running NO ARMOR. Instead, you sat there in plain sight of him doing pretty much nothing. Don't see how lobbing mortars into a glass wall is suppose to scare him. Work on your aim a bit more.

why do that when a screen of the scoreboard can do it for me.

im glad that your reading skills match your playing skills.

i did do that, but its not in the video because of the extra length it would have added to the video, the end result was the same, after combating with bots and the other pro's i did manage to make it to the launch pad that was below the sniper, but he knew i was there and before I was able to be launched, i was head shotted,.....but you read that already and just decided to be a ****. i really think you are missing the point of the video anyways, so just move along, nothing to see.

The point of the video was to show that you can't walk right in front of a sniper when he's looking right at you. Am I getting it?

All that screenshot proves is that you and those 2 assaults on your team are terrible at this game.

Right and all your lack of screenshot proves is nothing at all?

its not possible to say SHOW ME PROOF of something like this, because no mater what you see you can say, those guys suck i'm better, this is balanced im just super good..

so really its pointless

devs will nerf if they feel its needed.. all we do is say how we feel


I FEEL SNIPER IS OP, and HEAD SHOTS ARE TOO EASY TO GET

VOTE + 1

Because your entire argument falls once you base it on your playing ability, which is inadequate.

It's like having a test pilot tell you a car handles like crap, then discovering he just doesn't know how to drive.

Your problem seems to be that you don't know how to play other classes. I'm sorry. I've gave you all the hints.

We're back here? We've long since ascertained that comparing different weapons in different games is inherently stupid. Do you know why? Because they're different games. There are different mechanics, different skills, different maps.... different everything. It's like comparing an F1 car to a tank. They're made for different things.

On top of that, you're showing me rather mediocre cherry picked footage of rather mediocre players.

The only exception is the last one (you could have at least posted the original), which is indeed representing an unusually good sniper. Here's something you clearly don't understand - That's cherry picked footage, of an unusually good player. It's not the class that's inherently good. It's a really good player posting some of his best footage.

Here's one of the top TF2 scouts doing a similar kind of footage

Makes it seem overpowered doesn't it? That's what good players do. They make classes seem overpowered. Because they're good players.

You should also take a moment to see that while those weapons are bolt action, they reload much faster than the sniper currently reloads a clip, and are 2 hit kills with body shots. In MNC the Sniper can only 2 hit kill other snipers and assassins without armor.

The point remains, that we're talking about different weapons in different games, with different mechanics. Comparison is pointless and arbitrary.

This is why I keep saying you're not a very good player, "insulting your skill" as you say. Because you seem to be unaware of what other classes can do.

Besides erratic movement, which makes aiming for headshots much, much, harder, a good player will use cover to get to the Sniper. Abuse indirect fire to force the sniper to either move with a less favorable position, or get killed. If they just stand at long range and just try to "trade blows", then yes, they're go to ******* lose. The same way a Sniper that doesn't fall back or greatly out-skill the opponent is going to lose to an assault at medium-close range. You don't try to beat equally skilled opponents at their own game, do you?

Actually I'm what we call a "career sniper". I'm usually the sniper on every game.

That said, again, you don't seem to understand the difference between what is a one off chance due to a lucky hit and what is consistent behavior a good player can easily replicate.

The other day I pulled a double headshot while jumping. One shot, two skulls, midair. Beautiful. I doubt I'll be doing another anytime soon. If nothing else because people won't simply be lining up their faces for it.

Another thing you're forgetting: As players get better, you will start seeing more crazy **** pop up... From every class. This game has 6 classes around with fairly high skill ceilings. You can already see crazy awesome players - ON ALL CLASSES.

I won't mention myself, I'll leave that to be judged by the people who play me, but this community already has all kind of crazy *** players on all classes. Yes, you got pretty good snipers like grimbar or Hep, but then you got crazy assaults like Statement (from what I hear, haven't played him myself), and Gunners like Mastah. And these are just the ones whose names I remember, and I'm terrible with names.

Actually no. It's not relevant where you put it the "bar", unless it's inhumanly high or absurdly low. As long as it's equal for all classes. If you want "peak human" (an expression I have the feeling you stole from Marvel's Civil War categorization of heroes, but whatever), then you need to use it on every class. If you want "average" then it's "average" for every class.

Except it isn't. You have yet to provide any evidence of this except "because I say so".

Actually, that's easy. You don't eliminate a and c, you eliminate b. If a x b is bigger than c x b, and we know b is....well... b.... then a < c. That's what happens here.

I want you to go to a library, any library that is decently equipped with technical books. Then I want you to pick up books on scientific research methodology. In those books you're going to browse sampling and variable control.

It'll hopefully offer a better explanation on the subject, but meanwhile, here's the short version:

Random variables can be controlled provided they're kept "equally random" for everyone. For instances, when you're testing, absurd example, how fast an average person can toss a baseball before and after doing some specific exercise, you have variables that you simply can't eliminate. One of the subjects can be tired. The ball can slip. Someone can get distracted. Someone can feel sick..... etc.

This happens for pretty much any possible test ever, from grading tests to clinical trials. There are a huge number of variables you simply can't eliminate. But tests, of all kinds, are done today. Scientific research is conducted. So how do we "eliminate", or control, these variables? By making sure everyone's under similar conditions.

For instances, you test everyone around the same hour, you give everyone several tries, preferably on different days, and you get more people to run the test. This way, any "random" variable (like the ball slipping during a throw) will have an incredibly small expression on the final result.

Sure, the ball can still slip out during a throw and affect the results, but everyone can have an accident. It can start raining one day, but it'll rain for everyone doing the test, before and after.

Likewise, we have several good members of the community, reporting consistently being able to deal snipers just fine... Except you.

Now, either you're seriously willing to argue that everyone else only gets bad players, and you only get good players, or something equally ridiculous, at which point I'll just laugh and move on, or you have to accept that the only consistently different variable is you. These are normal people. They all have good and bad days. They all get shitty and awesome teams. They report consistently having no particular issues with snipers.

"It's not me, it's everyone else".

So... Good players are a problem? Yes. They'll do that...

Much like you're assuming the sniper is always dead on...? And the grenades/mortars don't have to be dead on, that's the point, they explode.

Also, tossing what up?

It doesn't, the thing is, the sniper's skill ceiling is inhumanly high. You don't get to the Sniper's skill ceiling, and there are severe "plateaus" of diminishing returns along that particular progression. As best a human player can do, the sniper is in-line with other classes, which is what you don't understand. Either because you seem to be grossly overestimating what Snipers can do or egregiously underestimating what other classes can do.

That said, you can't prove a negative. It's a logical loophole. Thus why the burden of proof falls on the claimant. You claim the sniper can become better than any other class given equal player skill levels. Burden of proof falls on you.

No, that's exactly the problem. You don't know how other classes can perform, so you consider that one class overpowered. Off course.

That said, snipers would get gimped by bolt action or slower rate of fire for the same reason any other class would. As we've seen before, without headshots the snipers already do rather poor damage. Yet body shots are necessary, and a part of the game. Removing that (which is what you do when you lower the rof, effectively raising the kill time far higher) forces the sniper to have an absurdly higher skill floor (headshots required with a low rof) to achieve the exact same average performance every other class can with little to no trouble.

Hey, here's a thought: The gunner totally murders people at close to medium range when spun up. We should totally remove his ability to spin up his minigun beforehand! Or maybe just slow him down a lot. I mean, using your logic, he's much more mobile while spun up than his counterparts on other games. The TF2 heavy sure as hell doesn't have a jetpack! Nor can he do a 360 huge radius slam to damage, stun and knock people out of the map! Nor is he nearly as accurate!

See how stupid this gets?

@taste: Actually that shows you're a god awful gunner. Why did you go face to face 4 or 5 times in a ROW? Didn't you get the message the first 3 times? It took you 5 deaths in a row to learn to shoot from behind cover, and you never even considered going AROUND.

Here's a hint: Next time, go out the right side, through the doors, turn right, spin up your mini-gun, use the jump pad, jet pack at peak, and say "hi" to that give that sniper a lead facial. TADA, problem solved.

Alternatively just do what you learned to do in the end and just lob mortars over the ******* barrier through which he can't shoot...

Possibly photoshopped too. 3 guys on each team, sniper got 50 kills and assaults got 15 deaths?

ANYWAY, I vote that the sniper isn't good at killing half of the pros at all.

Vote +1. Anyone with me?

I CAN say they suck becuase the sniper was playing with no armour and vsing 2 assaults which ar better than snipers. I will not withdraw my statement, the gunner and two snipers are bad.

And my vote is with BroTranquilty

you think i would shop an image up just to prove a point?
the video clearly shows his score before i screenshotted the scoreboard before i left the server.

naw, he wasnt good at sniper, just holding a level 63 (me) + two assaults in their base and the other players on my team that left before the final screenshot. your point is very valid

I am now seeing just how smart some of you are.

Look, no offence dude, but I have seen (and beenI=) gunners and assaults that went 70 kills.