I'd like to blame Uber, but I think it's our fault.

There are only a few changes that uber made that discourage the objective gameplay:

-laser blazer nerf now becoming nothing more than a juice battery. All Pros get juice and run away and leave the turret alive. This stops bot flow even with your dominate map control.

-The two most powerful ranged moneyball killers now do significantly reduced damage to the moneyball. This encourages more team play, but also encourages these two classes to use their juice in more efficient ways. (pro/turret control)

Utimately, people have gotten a lot better and play the game differently now, but to say it happened right when spunky dropped is incorrect IMO. I saw much more deathmatching pre patch with unlimited/invincible juice runs and costprohibative rocket turrets, and supports and snipers who could out juice assassins on a regular basis.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is just wrong. For the record, Patch, I've wanted to play with or against you for a long time now; ask any Mouskateer. However, I disagree with your arguments here. Juice-chaining has largely been nullified by the timer countdown. With Juice chaining, I would regularly see top players going 70+ kills a match. By regularly, I mean 6 or 7 matches, consecutively. Furthermore, Rocket Turrets have been greatly buffed. Many people complain about assassins eating up rocket turrets. Those are the same people who don't know how to crowd control.

The one instance where I find kills take precedence over everything is in Pub matches. However, this is because of time constraints. There's no challenge going against pubbers, no challenge at all, and I can and have single-handedly destroyed a moneyball within 2 minutes of the starting bell. Do you want to play 2 minute matches? Because I really don't. The only alternative is to sit around waiting for the pubbers to get their crap together. If you want to play MNC the way it is meant to be played, join a private match run by people who know how to do balanced teams. PU5H is one such individual; Tom#'s is another. Or, if you'd like, we can combine friends lists and see what we can get going. To anyone else reading this, this is an open invitation to balanced PM's guys.

Who really cares. Maybe I managed to read it all and responded it one minute. Go cry about it.

Are you seriously, in Ubers own forums, in a section called Monday Night Combat General Discussion advertising opertunities to get other games?

How disrespectful can you get.

As am I. 5 pages and still no answer.

I honestly think the balance changes lessened the amount of TD playing. Just because players choose to play this way doesn't mean the changes were intended to increase it's aspects. Yeah sure they added in some Protags for killing other Pros and added the All-Star leveling. MNC is evolving and just because you choose not to evolve with it doesn't mean it's the game and or it's changes. It is still a Shooter with tower defense elements that rewards teamwork over lone-wolfing. We all know in Deathmatch/TD the lone-wolfs prevail.

Look Patch, I didn't mean for this to be a direct attack on you! I do realize that it certainly comes off that way, having re-read my statements. For that I am SORRY! If your only real complaint is that there is no more juice rushing via bought juice, then I am sorry that juice was so crucial to your gameplay style. I personally welcome the juice lockdown (my opinion), and I think it adds balance to the game(my opinion). When juice was readily available for anyone, at anytime, it was very difficult to stop a player from rushing over and over again. There is a limit to how much a person can rush now, and you don't have to stop 6 players from rushing your base with juice all at the same time anymore. This game was intended to be a team based game, with each player filling a specific role. I don't think that one player should be able to drop a ball all by him/herself(my opinion). I Agree that at first, even I was upset with the changes, but after playing for a week or two, I adjusted. I do have to say, that there has been, and always will be players who just want to pro kill in this game (You give a player the option to kill, and he will). Spawn killing was around from day one in MNC. I don't feel that this magically changed with the DLC. You can still effectively push bots in any arena (especially assassins), so I don't understand what it is that you are so upset about, sorry. The changes to all classes were waranted IMO except for the ones made to the support class, which most MNC fans agree upon. I am sorry to lose a valuable player from the game such as yourself. Maybe everyone can get back together when Brink comes out! :mrgreen:

This is one of the exact reasons why Patch's OP is way off base. The whole thing smacks of revisionist history and trash talk and nothing constructive about it. The deathmatch and juice spamming was totally bringing this game down before the Spunky DLC. Those were welcome changes. On top of that, the Rockit turrets were reduced in price to the point where they are viable builds and not just wastes of $$. If anything more turrets are built. The real problem as I see it personally is that the Support is still almost left to be the only guy to build turrets and he earns money slower than ever, while still trying to upgrade his abilities. That is extremely frustrating and a valid complaint, but you didn't give a detailed example like that.

Not a single worthwhile comment edging towards detail really.. I b**ch about the Support nerfs all the time (not that you are talking about Support, but I suspect its large part of it whether you want to admit it or not), I'm loud and proud but at least the complaints are clear. Yours are not.

Besides, if the game was tweaked and nerfs/buffs were done strictly to appease the forums... we would have never seen the Airstrike nerf because no one complained about it. That was a big wtf moment.

*giggles at SHS*

Patch all I can say is, I love you. I agree with everything that you have said.

I think that this game was much better before Spunky, but, I still enjoy playing it. I don't know why but I keep playing, even though it makes me want to break my controller. I may hate this game in some aspects, but it keeps bringing me back with some sort of sadistic charm I guess; and again, I don't know why.

I to am curious, about both the changes that you have issues with and your reluctance to state them even after being asked to multiple times.

Why does everyone hate Spunky?

I used to hate it, but I figured out my strategy and now I enjoy playing it for 75% OF MY MATCHES.

I play support, and could care less about the airstrike nerf. I used to build a lot of lazerblazers. It was nice to have a turret that could bail you out in a pinch. I have built ONE since the dlc that I can remember, and you know, it saved us and helped start a push back for victory after our moneyball was 95% toast.

Uber makes their adjustments, I make mine. Still the most fun i've had on xbl, and ive been here since day one, On Unreal Championship, blasting foos with a lightning gun.

Love this game.

Friggen OP lightning gun.

Lol!

I didn't answer SHStiger because his reading comprehension is poor:

I don't understand how someone could infer that. I felt any response to him would have been equally misinterpreted.

I also didn't feel that a laundry list was necessary. It would have spawned multiple arguments that should be addressed in their own threads (others exist which discuss the patches in detail). I did allude to a few changes I disagree with, and I tried several times to make my argument clear:

• 1. Many changes were requested on the forum and subsequently appeared in patches.
  
  2. The changes were poorly implemented. Bugs that should have been fixed were not (still possible to shoot through barriers, Support's firebase can still be eaten by walls, etc.).
  
  3. Cumulatively, these changes have shifted the focus of the game from tower defense + squad based combat to team deathmatch.

Since you continue to press, I'll provide a few examples:


Juice Dispensers

There was a lot of discussion about these on the forum prior to the Spunky patch.

Uber's correction was to put the juice machines on a timer for everyone. I think this was a poor decision, assuming Uber was trying to reduce spawn camping.

It would have made much more sense for the dispensers to be on a timer for each team (or a specific Pro). If Uber really wanted to eliminate spawn camping, they could have placed special juice dispensers inside the spawn. These would be activated for an individual player after a certain number of deaths by the enemy in a given time frame (more deaths = cheaper juice).

I agree that spawn camping has always been an issue. However, I feel it became worse after the latest patch. It's much easier for one or two players to juice cycle and lockout the dispensers, preventing those being spawn killed from sneaking out and buying juice.

Turrets

These have never been properly balanced. Previously, most players built Lazer Blazers since they were cheap, effective against bots & Pros, and quick to upgrade. The base Rock-Its would generally be upgraded to level 3 during long matches, and I'd see the occasional ShaveIce and Long Shot depending on the map.

Post Spunky patch, it's all Rock-Its, all the time.

I think Uber went the wrong way by weakening Lazer Blazers and making Rock-Its cheaper. Most players rarely bothered with the latter because they were so easy to destroy. I'd have rather seen Rock-Its given more health and better short range accuracy (or reduced the damage dealt by juiced assassins).

Exchanging an overabundance of Lazer Blazers for Rock-Its is not what I consider a positive change. I'd have preferred an incentive for building a turret system (ShaveIce + RockIts + Long Shots), like more damage done to bots/Pros or a greater amount of money earned.

When all I see are Rock-It turrets, I'm reminded of vanilla hazards in generic team deathmatch.

Support

This class has been handicapped into obsolescence. [I know this isn't accurate, but...] I got the impression Uber was punishing Support players for their oversight with juice healing.

After the first patch, hacking enemy turrets was near useless. After the second patch, air strikes became a novelty instead of a means of holding ground and destroying turrets. I wouldn't be surprised if the third patch replaced the shotgun with garlic halitosis.

Effective Supports are relegated to fortifying the base, which is difficult when they can't buy turrets or put their firebase into an offensive position. This reduces the amount of money Supports earn, leading to fewer upgrades and turrets. The downside is that all of the Support's upgrades indirectly help the team. Even his passive skill significantly improves the bots, though it's useless when he's in the base instead of pushing the lanes.

The Support class has become a liability instead of a requirement. It's better to fill that slot with a second Assault or Sniper, further increasing the deathmatch factor.


Minor, unrelated gripes (bad ideas):

Endorsement Reveal

I disagree that dead players should get to see the endorsements of their killer. This spoils the mystery and encourages copycats.

Gazillionaire

It feels like Uber put this tag into the Highlights just to give players a use for the excess cash. It's a pointless tag that looks equivalent to Millionaire. It would have been much better to add more custom classes...or a gambling system to place bets on matches. The latter might sound ridiculous, but I think this would be a fun and appropriate [Cantor] minigame that shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

NIMBY

I loved George Carlin too, but this turned the omnipresent bull's eye on the Support's firebase into a neon orange light show. In order to maintain balance, corresponding tags should have been created for screwing other classes (e.g. Sapper Time: Shoot a Sniper's trap immediately after it is deployed).

All-Star Mode

Prior to release, Uber advertised this feature as optional. Prestige shouldn't have been forced onto everyone. Also, using bot icons instead of numbers/stars is confusing.

You aren't missing anything. I was a mediocre Support/Gunner before the patch who focused on helping my team while being a nuisance to the enemy (instead of getting kills). Gunner is now useless at providing cover and killing bots from long range. Supports essentially play house in the base, which is frustrating considering how good they used to be at pushing bots and destroying turrets.

Some of my frustration has to do with the fact that the classes I enjoyed are no longer as effective. However, when I play other classes, it still feels like the objective is to kill other Pros. The tower defense element of MNC has vanished.

I disagree that it's evolving. Uber just keeps tinkering with the formula; the latest version tastes like New Coke.


I'll admit I played the game differently than many of you. Several of the prominent forumers like to "let the bots do the work" while they focus on killing enemies. That's never been my play style. I prefer taking out the Moneyball as quickly as possible, since that's the object of the game.

I can understand how someone who targets Pros over the Moneyball wouldn't think much has changed. Perhaps it hasn't, but MNC felt like a completely different game the first match I played after the Spunky Cola update (which, incidentally, was not Spunky Cola Arena). I tried for a month to accept the changes but couldn't. This is my catharsis.

I didn't get that impression at all. It bothers me you'd think that. We were having a discussion, which is the reason forums exist.

I believe it's gotten progressively worse, and the patches seem to have encouraged it.

In reading through the responses, it's clear I'm not the only player who feels MNC has lost its magic.

I'm glad you took the time to post that, will post an in-depth response later. You did actually make posts in this thread after Steiger asked, that's what confused me.

I agree with many of your points Patch, but I dont think 90% of them have to do with the DLC.. I think its just been a progression. I find turrets more valuable now than before, except the LaserBlazer, which I _never_ build. As for as team deathmatch goes.. that progressively changed the further the game has been out.. the first month or so everyone relied heavily on turrets, after that month was over though it changed and it became mostly about pro vs. pro because everyone realized what Juice was and that turrets are total weaksauce. In general I think turrets are just way too weak, I've always thought that. All turrets should have much more armor than they do. An assassin that has practiced will be able to to take down 3 or 4 turrets in 1 juice for example.. and thats just dumb. The tower defense aspect of MNC has always been too weak. Level 3 turrets are pretty damn strong, but they still require a buttload of baby sitting if you don't want to lose your investment and know you can't trust the rest of your team to do it.

As far as the Support player goes, I totally agree.. and the people that don't get it or havent played Support primarily for a long time, specially pre-DLC, just won't get it. So many things were tweaked/nerfed on Support its the total sum that has crapped it out. FB takes forever to deploy, nothing regens when you die, healing takes far too long without an endorsement to the point where almost against any pro/weapon you cannot keep a heal going above the amount of damage being taken, the airstrike nerf and other cooldown tweaks have made it so you can actually be gimped.. meaning no form of defense/attack other than your primaries, which are extremely weak with the exception of the shotgun when you are close range.. etc. etc. I could go on.

But as for everything else, I don't think it has anything to do with the patches.. just progression of time and more people constantly playing and seeing what other people are doing. I also agree that its far too common of some decent players on the forums who promote or see no problem with certain aspects of the game such as pubstomping and kill counting instead of going for the MB, but that too has nothing to do with the DLC.

As far as the support... yeah he's been chump-ified and waaaaaay too much was done to him while other obvious issues were not fixed,.. however, I can still dominate a game with the class.. if it doesnt get fixed next go around, I'll probably quit.. but for now I'm just sitting tight and making due with what I've got. The sponsor build out that I've had to create just to make the Support some kind of decent threat to ward people off instead of making me look like an easy target is just insane.. and it makes me sacrifice much of the characters actual role. Before the DLC if you told me I would use Speed, ReGen, Armor on Support I would have said you're crazy..., but gold Speed is the only thing I've found that (very) slightly makes up for everything thats happend. With the DLC, the only buff to the Support.... the H/H gun, annoys me more than anything else. Suports that go for RoF + Passive3 H/H as their primary weapon, is the lamest build/player in the game.

Juice.. I agree the change there, cooldown timers, should be team based instead of global... but to think or say that the Jucing problem is worse now than it was before the DLC came out is a bit insane. Before the DLC you would constantly have 6 players juicing over and over, rotating constantly with no cool down. That's the entire teams Juicing all at the same time. If you were in a game where your team was obvious outmatched (pubs), that crap would be absolutely absurd.. that aspect was totally removed by the DLC and was one of the few good things to come out of it. Team-based cool down would be wiser, but here you/we are suggesting something to the devs, on the forum, to get changed.... a bit ironic/hypocritical yeh?



The only area I would agree on about a few horrible nerfs being forum members faults, is on the Support and the Laser Blazer (most of these people being Assassin players btw).. but then again, the forum never cried about the Airstrikes.. so you can't point that at them. Blaming anyone is pretty childish really,.. sometimes good intentions go wrong and in a dynamic enviroment such as multiplayer, seeing all possible side-effects can be very difficult so I do not see the benefit in trying to blame anyone.

All-Star mode, I dont remember them _ever_ saying it would be optional.. I do however remember them saying countless times that it would be retro-active for people who already had high earnings. I dont really see a problem here tho..who cares.. its not like it makes you bigger target in-game, so the only benefit would be hiding how long you've played the game... and I havent seen an issue of people dropping out of pubs just because some All-Star'd people are in the lobby... so again, who cares... seems a bit petty.

Perfect post, in my opinion. Adapt to the game.

The issues I listed are changes that came with the last patch.

I agree...and it's frustrating that each patch has slightly shifted the game away from tower defense. I always hoped Uber would go the other way, since that's what makes MNC unique.

That's fair. I suppose it is better in that regard. My complaint is that this is still a problem.

Prior to the patch, it was possible to disrupt a team who was juice cycling (or at least win the match while they spawn killed). Presently it's highly improbable for someone to sneak out and buy juice when both dispensers are locked out.

Every time I've tried to play MNC since Spunky's release, I've run into a team who have the juice dispensers locked out and are spawn killing. Nothing can be done about it, whereas previously there was at least one way to combat it.

But I was only critical of the bad ones! My suggestions are of course, savagely awesome.

Seriously though, this is another reason why I didn't make an initial list of complaints. I can't mention a problem without offering a solution (even if my ideas are silly).

Plenty of players have griped about air strikes. The more common grievances were their radius and damage, but I also remember complaints about their frequency. It's just been awhile since anyone has moaned about them since air strikes are easy for veteran players to dodge.

It was just a sensationalist thread title. I wasn't directly placing blame on anyone. I think Uber has done a good job with MNC overall. Still, I wish they'd have focused on fixing bugs and exploits instead of tinkering with the balance.

When All-Star was first mentioned, Ekanaut suggested it would be a mode where one had the option to prestige. To be fair, Scathis later said it would be retroactive and automatic. However, I received equally conflicting information talking to the developers in game prior to the patch being released.

This is not a big deal...it was just yet another unpleasant surprise with the Spunky update. I spoke with a few players the day of its release that wanted to remain at 99.

I did list that as a minor, unrelated gripe.

I never said this. It never was optional nor is it prestige. All-Star doesn't do anything except change your level # and icon next to your name. By the way this kind of misquoting is EXACTLY why we don't talk about upcoming changes until we do them first.

The game has gone through changes but so have all the players. Some people will continue to play and change while others will stop. As far as we're concerned, this game as always been a game that we as developers wanted to make and play and anything we add or change will be something that we want to do. If we see some good suggestions on the forum that's compatible with our thinking, guess what, they'll make it into the game. You can't always predict how changes will work out in the wild and we make adjustments accordingly. You'll see us do more of this on the PC version because we can change things quickly. It's not so easy to do it on the 360 version currently but we're hoping to change that in the future.

Well considering your OP was a lot of veiled rambling with no real pinpointed complaint, I was trying to grasp for something to ask you. The only lines you really had that actually had some sore of focus was:

The 2nd line was true of the game before the DLC with the exception of locking out machines. But considering your OP was so damn vague, the first line stuck out.

Anyways, the team specific cooldowns are a pretty good idea and Lazer Blazers do need a buff. Other than that, can't say I agree with you on the other arguments you listed in your latest post.