I have decided to stop playing MNC. Heres why:

I was trying to run a Crit Ammo RoF build for assassin and ejectors are a ohko.

Ok 299 Damage. God forbid anything instant kill the instant kill class's.

Annihilator should only affect bots.

Than honestly why even have it?

If you're in a position to use it becuase you were winning, you don't need it. You get what? At MOST 8 bots, and more likely 4 or less. And those bots.. yeah they were gonna feed juice to your assassin/tank which is more beneficial. Or even worse, the loosing team has a cloaked assassin or clever assault ninja it, and reset your entire effort..

Its pointless IMO Let it damage pros.

or better yet, using it should cost 800 and it takes ALL juice from the enemy team, including taking away juice that is being used.

Tinygod you have the worst ideas I have ever heard.

Super constructive Runie.

Course did I really expect more from you?

Answers, no

I'm sorry but they're bad, you don't know how to balance a game. Please stop trying.

Thank you for this post.

To the OP. I play this game only to have fun, and to do so, I set aside all opinions on balance and such and just play the game as is, and I enjoy it. However, when some tyrant comes and rants about something being OP, nerf this, nerf that without explaining long term affects of said nerf, then I also enjoy trolling their threads. (I'm looking at you tinygod)

If you find little joy in MNC, then all I can say is to wish the best of luck in your next game.

My mistake I meant Black Jacks.

Disagree on all of this.

Juice bars need an increased cooldown to reduce juice chains, or some other method. That's all... Half bars just means someone can and will buy both and deny the other team ANY juice advantage... then walk into your base, glowing. You're swapping one problem for another. And when the cooldowns are up i guarantee someone will be there to take it again. For $500 it's far too much. For half that price you can kill every bot on the field.

Ejectors are fine as is. Used properly (i.e mid-game) they are a powerful use of $50, granted. However they can also be denied by the enemy team for an equally cheap price. Activate them as your bots move nearby and deny the enemy the chance to one-shot them. There are two sides to every coin.

The annihilator does not need any modification. Having it deal that much damage to enemy pros is a major balance shift on top of what is already a powerful mechanic.

You will kill anyone who is sufficiently injured or any low HP classes not running armor. Sorry, that doesn't sit with me. Especially for $250. Unless ejectors are going to call down a tactical nuke for the $100 you're proposing they cost, Killing several people on the field or at least guaranteeing they have to back out of combat PLUS erasing all the bots for only $250 is a joke.

I agree with the disagreeing post.

Ejectors are powerful, but play into map control. They really aren't constant-reliable in the game, even to assassins. If anything, they actually act as a buff to supports (who can make a bot wave survive ejectors, so he becomes more necesary). Therefore, my advice if you lose to ejectors, is to play support and work on bot waves with passive 2.

Annihilator is actually the most powerful. For the price of 5 ejectors, you can clear every bot in the field. Why would a team with snipers and tanks use this? If they have no field control (even snipers can't push bots without field control for safety). Annihilator's purpose is to clear the field of bots, it does that and is worth it. My advice on annihilators, is to use it NO MATTER WHAT, as the winning team wants to use it to prevent the losing team from clearing the field and making a comeback, and the losing team wants to use it to reset the map and make a comeback.

Juice box pickups, well they actually are more useful for classes that have no luck getting juice through damage, plus they discourage turtling. I like both of those effects. My advice here is keep enemies out of the field and the loot is all yours.

Making it only give half means that for them to do what you stated would cost $1000 pretty major investment.

I think a number of things can happen with the "Vendors" (I was confused at first, I thought you meant pickups for juice).

One, they are fairly ok the way they are now. They are a map struggle point, so good teams would fight over them and take them back and forth.

Two, if they needed a balance patch, here are some of my ideas:

1)Double the cooldown, and make the cooldown team-only (each team can use the machine once in a time period).

2)Just increase the cooldown 50%.

3)Make them cost $600 a piece instead.

4)Simply cap the time it takes a pro to use juice again, once every minute and a half or so.

You still don't solve the main problem. Someone with $500 to buy two juices now will have one juice instead, but at the same they will also deny ANYONE access to instant juice. Even people on the other team. Juice will mean more if there is less of it, so giving someone with the cash the means to juice themselves will tip the scales anyway. You solve nothing. Especially since on most maps the juice bars are next to each other. It's a pretty clear issue.

To be honest, juice SHOULD mean more than it does for how powerful it is. That is one of my main gripes with the game. Juice is incredibly powerful yet so common that it doesn't feel like as key of a teamwork moment as it should be.

Most games only allow one person to use its "super powerup" at a time with a long cooldown. Quad damage has I believe a 2 1/2 minute respawn time and only one person can use it at a time. Ubercharge is limited to one specific class and requires around 1 1/2-2minutes to charge and another person working with you to be effective (since you can't do any damage yourself while ubering)

I know that MNC is a totally different beast by design, and juice is very key to the games balance. I'm just stating that it feels like making something SO powerful be less available isn't exactly a bad thing.

Quad spawns every 2 minutes and lasts 30 seconds and the usual time to charge an ber in TF2 is 40 seconds for the regular one and 30 seconds for the kritzkrieg.

Now it's quite obvious that juice is treated more like ber rather than Quad and quite frankly if it wasn't for the turret wasting capabilities it would seem right the way it is, on a pub it is hell for people unfamiliar with keeping track of people to contain them in case of a juice however in more coordinated ways of playing the way juice works plays out nicely since you can just control the person at hand.

Now with people like tinygod at hand who likes to believe it's a walk in the park to get past an entire team to lay waste to it by the means of cloak or bombjumping let me present you something from DotA: mia calls, learn them, heed them, embrace them.

considering the speed of movement of the assassin, an MIA call is rather pointless since by the time you inform people she is gone there is a good chance she is already onto her next objective.

Also, one thing to note: quad damage is also removed from all competitive play maps. They all use megahealth or red armor in its place (usually mega).

Also its only 40seconds to charge an uber if you are ONLY healing players who aren't fully overhealed. Fully overhealed players cause it charge at 1/2 that and considering that it only takes about 3-4 seconds to fully overheal a teammate while outside of combat (72hp per second when out of combat but doesn't receive a boost to charge speed.)

On average its gonna take around a full minute to get a full charge. 50seconds in competitive games perhaps.

Kritz takes 30-40seconds to charge, but when you crit (once again requires two players to work together whereas juicing is a solo action) you have no defensive bonus. You get either one or the other, not both.

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Also I agree with your point about Tinygod who is believing that assaults and assassins are unstoppable and/or ezmode. Good players CAN deal with both but its a matter of the amount of effort it requires.

If an action takes significantly more effort to counter than it takes to enact than there is going to be a glut of people taking advantage of this fact because by definition that is an imbalance.

Let me welcome you to TDM where Quad is a very important part, people don't just play duels in Quake

and yes in order to compare the mechanics we need to assume ideal circumstances, I mean people like to quote the assassin going on bot rampages to gain juice fast, guess what players hurt themselves in order to charge ber fast. Having that Kritz up at 30 seconds is a requirement to make it work efficiently on a rush to mid since the enemy can see which weapon you have and you lose the surprise effect if you take too long.

Taking cp_granary as example, with kritz you wanna push far left with either a soldier or a demo (depends on the intelligence of the demo really) so that the first time you pop your head as medic is the very moment you pop the kritz to overthrow the opponents position.

The numbers I gave are also very important really, ber takes 40 seconds to give you 8 seconds (single target) of invincibility (can still get juggled/CC'd though), quad takes 120 minutes to give you 30 seconds of good damage (still able to receive damage, kritz-style), now the Kritzkrieg takes 30 seconds to get about one clip of critical shots out (4 rockets, some shotgun shots).

Given the pacing and meta of both these games they all make sense, ber defines one push, Kritz allows you to overthrow one push and then you better watch out on your second push because the enemy is prepared for the Kritz (utility classes ahoy or gayspots), Quad is an anchor point that needs to be controlled (think annihilator) and enables teams that make an effort to actually get it for once and to protect the quad guy to get some good points in.

Now take Juice, depending on class and player at hand it's roughly equally fast as Kritz/ber (depends on positioning, whether the lanes are covered bla bla) and what does it do? it doesn't render you invulnerable, you can be juggled, you can be grappled, yes you do damage but applying approaches like asplode-a-pro (headcrabbing a grappled target), headshots on a grappled target etc. It suddenly all becomes not so fine and dandy as people make it out to be.

But what about Overtime? Well everyone in this game knows when Overtime is going down, provided they check the clock or listen to Billy Mays every now and then, and people will prepare for it. Based on hearsay on XBOX it's common practice to have your entire team rush the enemy moneyball down the moment OT hits, provided it even reaches OT.

In conclusion: You don't get both benefits, you are very vulnerable to getting controlled by people who pay attention (and balancing around people who don't doesn't work) and MIA calls do in fact allow you to check one thing, I mean you see the assassin when she is doing bots, okay she isn't there therefore she isn't doing bots. She might be at juice vending machine? Your team is supposed to control that area so you'll know if she's there or not. That kinda limits her options to be in places, calling her as missing raises awareness of the team and will not allow the assassin free reign over the map.

Take lesson of the XBOX players, they figured out how to play the game long before the PC version has been conceived and quite frankly most of them are the better players.

Bit of a rant but you'll survive it.

"Now take Juice, depending on class and player at hand it's roughly equally fast as Kritz/ber"

I rarely play assassin and I know I can build up a full juice in under 30seconds. Meleeing a single wave of bots is enough to usually get you 2/3rds of a juice bar (if you include juice box pickups)

And once again, the fact is that medic requires a second person. Juice requires noone but yourself and bots or money to buy it.

You can be juggled about as efficiently by a good demo or solly when you are ubering as when juicing in uber. Also in TF2 the medic isn't exactly a highly mobile class, whereas juiced classes are just as mobile as unjuiced.

TDM? LOL! Is all I have to say. Sorry, comp play is pretty much in order: Duel/CTF/Arena THEN maybe TDM. Its the curling of the competitive quake world.

dk and the EQL would like to have a word with you.

Sorry but if you can't do anything but look at the latest Quake installment and the IEM you don't have any basis to make claims about Quake, that's just ignorant.

A medic requires an external source, a player requires an external source to build juice - same thing.

Both are readily available and yes I said that about juggling, and the medic is just as mobile as our Support or Sniper or similar.

Enjoy your day