How do I beat Vanguards?

Discussion in 'Planetary Annihilation General Discussion' started by damnhippie, July 19, 2014.

  1. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    Slammers have slightly more range than ants, so they could theoretically be micro'd to take out everything.

    Levelers are okay at dealing with them, but nothing really does enough DPS to affect them.
  2. Geers

    Geers Post Master General

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    YOU DON'T.
  3. damnhippie

    damnhippie Active Member

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    Tier 1 DOES NOT work against Vanguards. Believe me I've tried.
  4. Astroniomix

    Astroniomix New Member

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    Actually you just end up with specialized units beating the crap out of you anyway.

    Lack of specialization isn't the problem, it's the massive jump.
  5. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    [​IMG]

    Specialized != What we have now.

    A generalist can do many things. The Statera dox can raid, can be used as the mainstay damage unit in assaults, can flank attacking tank forces, and can be used as a quick response unit against incoming assaults.

    A specialist can do a couple things better than a generalist, but has fewer areas of proficiency. These are units that if used well can turn the tide of battle, but if used poorly will do very little. The Statera slammer is too slow to be used as a quick response unit or to raid, but puts out quite a bit more damage, especially at close range. These units need to be mixed in with others to be effective. An all slammer army is vulnerable to long range or even mid range units and needs to be mixed in with faster or longer range units like dox or crashers (Amphibious rocket bots) to be effective.

    A vanillaguard needs no escort to be effective and there is nothing an inferno does better than one at.
  6. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

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    How is what we have specialized?

    What we have is upgrades. They kinda have some specialization, but not really. As a general rule, they're better in every way and much more powerful than T1 units.

    All T2 units deal more damage per metal cost of the unit than T1 units.

    They're upgrades, not specialization.

    You also assume that I'm whining about getting the crap beaten out of me. I'm actually an above average player and happen to win, or do well, in most of the matches I play.

    If you want to debate someone, don't attack their skills as a player. Stay on the topic. My skills are irrelevant when we look at the design issues at hand.
    stuart98 likes this.
  7. tommybananas

    tommybananas Active Member

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    Brian calm down dude. you always get into this too much in pretty much any post that's mentioned you, hes not said anything about your skills...
    I agree that what we have isn't specialized (but does it really need to be if the metal costings right?) and that the numbers are still 'up in the air' for balance.
    One tactic iv been using thats working extremely well vs vanguard armies ect. i just select my army then select all the tanks under one group ect for infernos and van then another for shellers (i just let the T2 tanks charge in as well as their slow turret movement makes moving about too much usless). then in the fight just send your vanguards on attack move and just move your tanks ect behind them just takes like 3s of micro and you can keep an eye on the flow of battle to see if you need to kite a bit with your tanks and shellers i.e. click behind them some where in the distance once. so the micros not too much to handle / taking up too much of your time.

    Its not perfect by any means but its the simplest solution iv found to stopping my tanks running into vanguards head on for a bit of melee :).
  8. carlorizzante

    carlorizzante Post Master General

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    With a tons of micro. That's how.

    ps. Or use Shellers ;)
    Corpserule and Clopse like this.
  9. SolitaryCheese

    SolitaryCheese Post Master General

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    I had some success beating the **** out of Vanguards with Slammers, but they have reduced efficiency if Shellers are mixed in.
  10. darac

    darac Active Member

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    Specialisation isn't even the problem here, Vanguards are just simply OP. Who thought putting the most powerful weapon on the most heavily armoured unit was a good idea?

    They also have another attribute touched on lightly in this thread. They need almost zero micro which, imo, is also 'stat' that needs to be considered when designing units.
    SolitaryCheese, mot9001 and stuart98 like this.
  11. darac

    darac Active Member

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    Sorry, strangely quoted myself.
    Last edited: July 20, 2014
  12. maskedcrash

    maskedcrash Active Member

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    Vanguards are ridiculous.
    I'm doing a runthrough of galactic war (not a flawless test, I know), and on average, I can build 10-20 vanguards, point em at the main enemy cluster, have a bathroom break, grab snacks and a drink, and come back to a YOU WIN screen.

    Heavy slammer mirco can beat them, but it's not exactly fair compared to their micro requirement, which can be summed up as "EVERYTHING IN THAT GENERAL DIRECTION MUST DIE!"

    Also, you can't backpedal with bases.
  13. Corpserule

    Corpserule Member

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    Except the first time (where i got a true display of vanguards power), i have beat the rushed vanguard on multiple occasions with tier 1.

    Do keep in mind two things I said. "If its near your base its already too late", acknowledging that if its close, this won't work, and that infernos - the really risky, micro intensive way to kill it -, is more effective just because how stupidly tank they are. My definition of "close" is 60% of a basic radar's range from the closest building to the vanguard, and if you only have ants/aventails in that situation, you still wont kill it in time.

    TLDR - I never said defeating it with tier 1 is a reliable, good way to kill it, just that it is an option for those who have mastered setting tier 1 up and massing them asap.
  14. Deletive

    Deletive Member

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    Someone got 4 vanguards. and within about 10-20 seconds my commander was dead.

    Tried the same thing in an AI game and won within 15 minutes.

    It puts a warm feeling in my heart to know that Vanguards will stay this powerful for awhile. I'll just get more metal to compensate.
    stuart98 likes this.
  15. carlorizzante

    carlorizzante Post Master General

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    All these posts lead me to a thought.

    Once you designed a unit, why limit it to only one tier? Make an upgrade/downgrade of it and you get two units (for cheap).

    Unit upgrades make designing the game easier. Specializing units on the other hand add workload.

    Then you have to balance, which is always tricky, but balancing similar things may sound easier than balancing things that are entirely different.

    And now a question. PA is in development since almost 2 years. Have it been balanced, at least once?
  16. mot9001

    mot9001 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the main build everyone is playing is i believe 1 or 2 patches after the first balance pass.
  17. Corpserule

    Corpserule Member

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    Because they always want tier 1 to have its niche, they don't wan't tier2 to be outclassing tier 1 in every single way.
    Its actually in the List of of things needed to be done, and as it is (teleporters), they've done a pretty good job of it

    Also, Infernos are a tier 1 version of the vanguard in most respects (only no aoe), so its not like they haven't partially done that
  18. Corpserule

    Corpserule Member

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    I made a simple diagram of how to get a powerful Tier1 army out the door.

    Its not a perfect strategy, but its relatively easy to perform, I used it during Galactic war, when used right, it gives you a fighting chance against the rushed vanguard.

    Attached Files:

  19. carlorizzante

    carlorizzante Post Master General

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    Yes. In fact, I've been ironic and provocative.

    We still have to see specialization being seriously implemented in the units design for PA.
  20. metabolical

    metabolical Uber Alumni

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    Hornets are pretty good vs a vanguard + spinner army.
    ArchieBuld and cdrkf like this.

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