Factory Complex

That would imply that the holkins, catapults, levelers, smashers and so on would also pull PA away from that.
And do you really think that roughly two months before release, Uber will just throw away units that have long been implemented, and remake the unit roster from a scratch?

There is not thing to throw away, turns out you don'[t need to start from scratch when designing units can can change things a lot with just stats changes.

Even as they are now the Pelter and Holkins have some functional differences but obviously there is a fairly large 'power' gap between the two, much like what was seen in SupCom Tiers, but they don't have to remain that way. The Pelter can remain accurate and highly functional against structures while the Holkins can get slightly inaccurate and retain it's large area of effect to help it take on armies.

We've had a big long talk about about tech levels, and there are many people that don't like how the Leveler is basically an Ant x5 in most cases(in DPS it's more like 12x actually) you just missed it all on the forums it seems.

Mike

I didn't miss it, it's why I created this thread. To provide a possibilty for T1 units to shine in the lategame.

What you're describing probably means that the Holkins should do more damage and have longer range, but be more inaccurate than the pelter (which it kinda is already). So what you want to do is take away the T2 factory and the T2 fabs necessary to build that thing, basically eliminate T2 completely and put units like the Holkins and Catapults into the T1 roster. Obviously needing to adjust strenght and cost, because suddenly you're able to build it immediately. You're also able to build orbital immediately, or nukes. No time to prepare anymore, anything could happen.

I don't see how that would be more fun than what we have now.
Atleast now you have the option to do a timing push to hit your enemy when he/she is teching up to T2.
Things are better predictable (which doesn't mean less variety) and way easier to balance.

Edit: I can't imagine how else you ment that. But simply changing some stats won't change the fact that you spent more ressources on getting the holkins than getting the pelter. So it would have to be better in some kind. Sorry, but that's the only logic I can think in

That is what we want Arachnis (more or less). Power equivalent tiers, not upgrade tiers.
You have the right idea of what we want, but the incorrect implementation.

Basically we're in favour of eliminating 'T2' as a concept entirely as a direct power upgrade over T1 and instead focusing on Basic/General Purpose Units vs Specialised Units; one not necessarily being more powerful than the other, rather that they excel in different situations.

You're the only one saying that. I never said that.

One would still be in T2, which one largely depends on how you want the early game to play out, chances are you'd probably want the Anti-building Arty to be T1 to promote more unit use and downplay 'pure' defensive play.

Mike

Wy not take out all kind power generators and take out all kind mexes!
We dont need them,and take out also commander ,who needs it?

Yes but that's communism.

Jokes aside, how do you justify the difference in cost and building time when nothing is "stronger" than other things, but rather more specialized? And if I'd solely pay extra for the fact that they're specialized, then why should I do it when it is not cost efficient to do so?

Good gameplay. That should be all the justification you need.

Specialised units ARE more powerful than Basic ones... a lot more powerful in fact, but only in one specific area of expertise.
See Big Bertha vs Guardian.

I still don't believe in being able to build everything immediately. I mean, Nuke Rush anyone?
"Boy, just give the players some toys and let them play with them. They don't need rules, they'll handle it."

Sounds a lot like a sandbox game, great. Although sandbox games aren't competitive. And it's impossible to balance.
So I think we're talking about different games here.

And yeah I also don't like the mentality of minimalism (taking units away instead of adding them). Which you basically suggested, by saying that the T2 factories, pgens and stuff are redundant.

I mean why do you think tiers even exist? Basic question.
Why does character progression in RPGs exist? I don't know, it's obviously silly.

You're the only person saying everything will be available immediately.

Mike

No one said that you'd be able to build everything immediately. You're making counter points to arguments that no one is arguing.

T2 isn't redundant in its current form, and strictly speaking, neither is T1. However T2 is a boring upgrade progression over T1 and brings nothing new to the field of battle... just more powerful versions of earlier units. T1 isn't redundant... but it is invalidated by T2 in its current state.

So you're not argueing against T2? Why are we argueing then?
I'm all for specialized units, why did we get here? And what does it have to do with the OP?

T2 not explicitly more powerful than T1. That's what we're arguing.

There is no need to 'buff' T1 unit production in the lategame if they're perfectly viable to begin with. Currently they are not, due to T2 being an upgrade over T1.

The problem is T2. So fix T2.

So how would that look? I mean regarding T2 gens and mexes, levelers, smashers, holkins, catapults and all those t2 units. What changes would they need to go through?

That is a ridiculously complicated question. One I can't answer in a single post... or even an afternoon of posts.
I'm working on it, but these things take time to get to grips with and I'm not sure I can explain something I currently don't completely understand... yet.

However... if you'd like a preliminary argument:

I'm digging that. But that says nothing about pgens and mexes, and in those I was interested the most. Because you seem to think that there is a change necessary to them.

So here we are again:
What would prevent building a T2 mex over a T1 mex from being basic calculation. And if you'd want to remove T2 mex and pgen completely, then why do you think that it would increase the fun and variety of the game when you're basically just removeing elements from the game, instead of adding some?

Powergens and Mexes are in a weird place due to how the economy functions. I'm working on a similar write-up... but without any concrete examples from previous games to fall back on, it's a struggle to explain things accurately.

As a first step however, completely removing the upgraded extraction and power generation rates would be a good start, replacing the raw economic advantage of such Advanced units with specific roles for them to fulfil.

Examples could include Mexes that are able to defend themselves in some way, are able to cloak from enemy radar or vision, have an increased tolerance for damage or perhaps even the ability to uproot and move if they are threatened.

Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head that don't necessarily make them 'better' at their job than a Basic Mex, but instead give the controlling player more options if he is on the ball and planning ahead.

Then again, removing them entirely would be an option that I would not decry with shouts of 'Madness' either.

Edit: removing superfluous elements from the game focuses the gameplay. Keeping T2 resource structures that are just upgrades over their T1 counterparts doesn't 'add' anything to the game, so removing them won't cause the game to be less fun due to there being less features... since they weren't 'features' to begin with.

But this thread isn't about Pgens and Mexes.

As I've already explained, It's something other aren't happy about either, but what you suggest in this thread is the same thing but for T1 Factories.

If you want to talk about ways to fix the current level of obsoletion in Pgens and Extractors, you should research what has been already said in other threads as I mentioned back here and maybe create a new thread if needed.

Mike

But isn't the only thing that's being accomplished there that players would have less ressource income, making games longer? And if you want to adjust that by making normal mexes and pgens produce increased income from the start, doesn't that just remove depth from the game by setting the focus on early game fast action with consequentially less thought involved?

I don't agree that is does, no.
Upgrading to T2 isn't an interesting intellectual decision. It's a calculation with a correct answer (and many incorrect answers).

It adds nothing but ways to fail and certainly doesn't add any interesting strategic decisions.