Economics needs more complexity

Economic expansion can only go so far on one planet, I agree. I'm not thinking about one planet though. We will have other planets, and planet types that will have different economic advantages to colonise and fight over.

Until we have an idea of how far horizontal expansion can go, I posit that we should not consider vertical expansion very important.

Except that I have outlined ways to weaken the current T2 structures so that they have drawbacks to mitigate their advantages in resource generation.

Are we agreeing yet? You agree that T1 has a place - even currently - with regards to the resource model. I agree that the current T2 resource structures are perhaps too good for what they provide, with little in the way of drawbacks.



Remember, I only ever took issue with this because you claimed the resource model to be inherently broken and unfixable with number tweaks. Despite your parallel conversations with others (and myself) where you repeatedly emphasise that you would be fine if the T2 structures had drawbacks to balance their extreme utility ("numbers").

The specialization of a pgen is obviously power generation. So a T2 pgen should excel in this area over a T1, no doubt.
What nanolathe and zaphodx are saying here fits well together. Meaning a T2 pgen will generate flat out more power then a T1 pgen. In contrast to a unit that can move, has a speed, turn rate, rate of fire, view range, fire range, damage per shot that can be balanced with this values against another unit a pgen does only one thing, it generated power. To make the T1 pgen still usefull it should be the object of interest here. The T1 pgen should gain an ability in addition to its main purpose to give it additional use cases, like zaphodx said.
So T1 pgen produces power and does X.
T2 pgen produces insane power but does nothing else.
Where X can be things like:
- (radar-) cloak
- have much more HP
- fire death rays on nearby planets
- will not consume metal, where the T2 pgen does ....

Taking features away from the T2 pgen will not increase the use of the T1 pgen once T2 is available. Most players don't dive so deep into the game to calculate build costs against production values and such things. So if there is now appealing, obvious, in-your-face reason for a T1 pgen, no one will build them.

TLDR: No drawbacks for T2 but features for T1.

That's the inverse of what I have been suggesting, and also works well.

When implementing Dark Eldar into Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (a long while ago now) I implemented such a sidegrade for Plasma Generators (leaving the Thermo-Plasmagen alone). The upgrade cloaked the Generator (in line with sneaky sneaky Dark Eldar tactics) but reduced the Power output of the generator as a consequence (as DoW is a standard RTS, whereby you can hide all of your Power Gens out of effective harass range on larger maps).

Thanks purecaldari, you are correct. The inverse is always true when it comes to balance, you can take away from one side, or add to the other to correct an imbalance.

We agree

I agree that they serve a function. I do not agree that the function they currently serve, being a mere stepping stone to T2, is a worthwhile function.

"upgrading" to T2 should not be a mandate, it should be a strategic choice. If they keep their output as high as they currently do, they need some drawbacks or T1 needs additional utility.

Agreed?

Based on their respective incomes you could have T2 mex's and power plants have a much greater amount of time to pay for themselves?

Like if T1 mexes produced enough to pay for themselves over a 3 min period you could then have T2 mexes pay themselves off over a 15 min period.

Not necessarily the "best" option IMO. I'm much more in favour of the addition of extra abilities as a differentiator between tiers. My current favourites are mobile pgens and mexes with turrets (can you tell I like to turtle?), although I tried providing a generic list of options in a previous post.

Note that as purecaldari points out, it's entirely feasible to have the bonus abilities for the T1 variant(s) and have T2 be pure econ with no bonuses. I'm now thinking that fits better with the "T1 still being used" philosophy, you can have T2 output, or T1 output with added bits for your frontline buildings (e.g. T1 pgen with added radar or something similar).

Works for mexes(limited placement and numbers) so a upgrading a mex is a long term investment. Doesn't work for power generators because 1. When would a t2 power plant pay for itself? Energy cost depends on the metal cost which is in turn comes down to how efficient the powerplant is for cost. 2. If a t2 powerplant takes longer to pay for its' energy cost it is also a less efficient power plant for cost than t1 power plant(disregarding any other drawbacks).

I think my primary issue with T2 being a straight upgrade is that it is unneeded micro. If Uber makes the metal distribution fair, but keeps the density the same, T2 Extractors would become OP in relation to the *environment*. If you've played a genuinely competitive, fair game with another player, you know that unless the planet is extremely lacking in metal (read: extremely small), there is no real need behind building T2 Extractors aside from never having to worry about your metal income ever again. If they reduce metal density, then we have a rush to T2 which entirely invalidates T1 due to an excessive demand for metal.

I personally often have trouble keeping my energy and build power up with my metal, not the other way around. Considering that PA is about gigantic armies, destroying huge chunks of your enemy at a time, and overall dynamic and fluid gameplay (just like TA), you shouldn't have so little metal that you have to worry about unit survival aside from "Okay, so long as they BLOW AS MUCH STUFF UP as they were worth, their lifeless robotic shells were an invaluable sacrifice to my war machine. Next army!"

This is an example of not obvious reasoning between T1 and T2 that I was referring to. I don't think that this will influence most players. Not important how long it takes until the building pays off. If I mouse over the pgen Icon on my fabber I see an eight times higher power output so I build this thing.

The hardest part will be to actually find a "feature" to modify a pgen. Even harder if you want to add a functionality to the T1. Because it is early game and it is spammed. So the feature must scale well and don't be OP.
A radar would negate the T1 radar itself. Guns would make a really strong inner base defense, spammed 18 Ta pgens in you base? Happy shooting. So these guns have to be so weak that the questions remains if they should exists in the first place.
So whats left over? Stealth? Forced locations for T2 (transform T2 pgen into geothermal)?

I don't know how to put this in words any further. Maybe I'm writing nonsense here but yes, T1 to T2 should be differentiated by function, not only by raw increase of power. As pointed out by many here already. Anything else would be SupCom 3. This "pays of after..." stuff can be an additional factor, but not the only way of balancing this.

All PA economy units pay themselves off ludicrously quickly. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think a T2 Metal Extractor pays for itself in 20 something seconds. Compare that to SupCom's metal extractor payoff which can take 2-3 minutes for higher tech extractors. Even T1 extractors take a full 45 seconds to pay themselves off.

Feel free to fault me on these numbers, they're probably higher than my rough remembrances based on what little SupCom I played.

Well with T2 being specialized to a fault, why not just have it be better economy wise but actually be worse in another aspect?

TA extractors were all rather easy to kill, even with scouts but with the T2 extractors being larger they could easily become a liability against stray shots or falling wrecks, and like in many games such important structures could even explode upon death making them a liability?

Completely! This is why I tried to get some brainstorming earlier on, but it was lost in favour of analytical debate

Damn... who am I gonna debate now?!

You could have a mass-debate with yourself?

So what have we decided then?

Is T2 overpowered... or does T1 lack utility?
Both?

Which are people most in favour of tackling, and should we split off from this thread to form a new one, discussing it?

T2 is a little strong in my opinion.

EDIT: and seeing as how a topic never stays on it's exact tracts anyway, why split it into multiple locations?

Both.
Remove T1.
Nerf T2.

Done.
Next thread.

I can roll with this. Unless this is sarcasm. Vague post is vague.

You *are* >implying one tier of econ structures. Right?

It was mostly sarcasm.

Saying that T1 lacks utility when you need it badly to reach T2 is well...

Anyway, for 1v1 I think just single basic mexes and power plants is enough. The interesting diversity happens on the field in how you combat the enemy and not so much in economic choices. It is usually how it plays out in 1v1 in FA and Spring games I play anyway.

For FFA it is usually fun to have an ability to expand your economy without having to grab more territory though. Although planetary expansion could serve that need just fine though when the territory on the planet is already claimed.

As for giving T1 energy plants more utility while specializing T2 to be more cost efficient or having T1 being the basic power plant with T2 being dual purposed, having special abilities or certain drawbacks, I think both could work.