Dust and Footprints and Swirls (layers)

Re: Dust and Footprints

It's not as straight forward as a simple blit for rendering the decals, they actually get rendered out by the graphics hardware the same way the game view is, just in to an off screen buffer. The pages of the virtual texture get updated when ever they need to change, which is any time a new part of the planet comes in to view or when zooming in and out (different mip map levels) or when a decal is added or removed (scorch, scrubbing time back before scorch).

And yes, there's a limit. What it is depends on your video card and there might be some level of optimizations we can make there if it gets too expensive.

Re: Dust and Footprints

Alright cool. Thanks a lot for the in depth explanation. I like the way you handle a lot of things in this game. The CSG, this decal stuff and whatnot. It's not often you see devs really stray from the bog standard way of doing things.

Re: Dust and Footprints

bgolus, I have a question or two. Perhaps you can help;
(Though these questions go out to all the Uber Staff)

Now obviously Uber's decals are only first pass art and are likely to change, correct? I'd like to know the direction that this aforementioned change is likely to go. From what's been shown so far in concept art and the Pre-Vis video we've seen a marked difference between the (some would say) over-exaggerated art style and what's currently been presented in the pre-alpha.

I've not been given a concrete answer to this question despite many times of asking. I've been told the engine "could" handle the art style presented in the Pre-Vis video but that it's not ready to show yet. I fully understand that and am not expecting to see anything quite so polished at this stage of the game, nor am I asking to see it. What concerns me is whether or not the artistic style has changed to become less stylised, and if so, why?

Now I restate that I am aware that Neutrino and others have said the pre-vis video is the desired end goal when it comes to gameplay. Does this extend to the (very unique) art style as well or will that be toned down, and if so, why?

If you're unable to give me a concrete answer is that because you're still deciding on how far to push the art style towards that of concept art and the Pre-Vis or is there another reason?

Where is the artstyle at, right now, compared to where you desire it to be?
How far are you pushing towards the Pre-Vis from a purely visual, artistic standpoint?
Are the massive Swirls for both biome transition and land/water transition still in the pipeline or are they heading towards the cutting-room floor?

And if so, why?

Re: Dust and Footprints

I don't know how the above post managed to sound so incredibly passive aggressive, when all that needed be be asked was...

Re: Dust and Footprints

How you choose to read a post, and the tone therein is your own issue. I apologise if you're reading some form of aggressive intent in my post where none was intended. I'm intentionally not trying to be aggressive in any way, shape or form in my post.

I try to write things relatively concisely, but on this point I felt the need to elaborate.

As I said, I've asked this same question in a gameplay oriented thread and received a slightly non-committal answer, due in part I believe, to the polarising views within that thread on how the art style would affect the gameplay. Now I'm asking the question again hoping to get an answer from a more "artistic" standpoint.

Again, sorry if you think I'm aggressive here. That's not the intended tone.

Re: Dust and Footprints

I didn't think nanolathe sounded aggressive at all. I for one would like to know more about this topic aswell.

Re: Dust and Footprints

me2

Re: Dust and Footprints

I will say that, yes, the decals are first pass. One of the reasons I scaled down the resolution so much is Steve would kill me if I showed off how rough they are at full resolution.

As for the other questions about art style, I won't give a direct answer, but I'll explain why.

Games rarely ever look like it's concept art. A nasty secret of concept art is often if the "concept art" that's released looks just like the game, it was probably drawn after the game art was finished not before. The look of a game is an organic thing that springs out of the process of creating it. Concept art or "visualizations", or vertical slices are all early steps in that process. Concept art starts as a goal to work towards, but usually gameplay considerations (like can you easily differentiate the player or enemy characters from the background) or production considerations (is there enough time to actually produce that much unique art, create systems to support it) or technological considerations (the concept art doesn't have a consistent sun light direction, or is too difficult / expensive to render in real time).

Disappointing fans is a danger any game that shows off early has, be it early concept art or even early gameplay. Some game shows off some "screenshots" to drum up some buzz on a project and some time later the real game comes out and it looks nothing like the original. Fans rage, or at least complain. As developers we see it all the time, and we're just as guilty of doing it to other games we're not working on. The answer to why is rarely a simple one.

Though sometimes the reason is something "simple" like "the publisher forced us to change it because of focus group responses", which we're not allowed to mention except we do when commiserating over a beer with colleges. The number of beautifully stylized games that have been forced to look "realistic" due to focus groups pains me. Thankfully that's not an issue we have for PA.


Will the final game look like the gameplay visualization? No.
Will the final game have elements from the visualization? Probably.
Which elements in the final game will match those in the visualization? We have no idea. As we progress forward and continue with live streams you'll get to see it change and voice your opinions which will help us find the final look.

Re: Dust and Footprints

Believe me, I will. :lol:

Giant swirly swirls better be your top priority when it comes to what elements and styles should be taken from the Pre-Vis video, and if they're not I'll post a letter to you every day until you change your minds

I am totally serious mind you. I really feel that Planetary Annihilation needs to have its own visual identity, and it be a striking one at that. Right now it's looking very generic (which is of course due to everything still being "developer textures" and so forth.

I don't think I can stress enough that you guy need to make your game look different. It did wonders for Team Fortress 2, and looking outside of the gaming industry it's what makes the Simpsons so damn striking. Go stylised in a big way and your game will POP, even after a few years.

I know this will sound demanding... because essentially, it is:

Push the damn artwork style guys... please push it as far as it will go.

---

Also, be wary of vertical slices. Aliens: Colonial Marines got in a lot of trouble recently for that; it being "somewhat" of a bait-and-switch...

... I can't put enough quotation marks around "somewhat", so I won't even try; one set will have to do.

Re: Dust and Footprints

i'll send some e-mails to help you ^^

Re: Dust and Footprints

I wouldn't mind 'some' swirls, but I wouldn't want every map to have them. It would be monotonous.

Lets be honest, the swirl isn't really a great map style 'gameplay wise'. All your land units have to go in circles just to move from point A to B.

Re: Dust and Footprints

nanolathe makes a lot of good points, a unique identifiable visual style can help PA stand out. whether that's accomplished through swirls or not is a matter of discretion. thank you for the insight bgolus

Re: Dust and Footprints

Glad to see others are pushing the swirls. Unless you're not a fan of the style, I just can' think of a reason to not strive towards the kickstarter video.

Why do swirls HAVE to effect gameplay?

Re: Dust and Footprints

???

Because land units can't move across water. You either need some sort of transport system, or you have to endure the extra movement time. Basically waiting 10 extra minutes because the units have to travel through these swirls to get anywhere.

Re: Dust and Footprints

I think they're only talking about swirls as decals, not as map geography features. So, purely cosmetical.


Nevertheless, I think the swirls look pretty bad. It's not a style I like since it gives a very nonsensical overlap between different terrain. Also, I'd argue it doesn't give PA any unique style. Consider the last livestream, one didn't really see the swirls much anyway with the zoom level they used. A game gets a distinct visual style from the colours it uses, the models, animations or how much something is stylized. Having some swirly effects on some textures is barely noticeable in the end.

Re: Dust and Footprints

No, I'm talkin about coastal swirls too (mainly, actually). Thing is, water has different depths. Just because I can't drive my car over the ocean, doesn't mean I can't drive through a puddle without abandoning ship. I imagine these robots are pretty damn tall, tall enough to cross through a few feet of water before being slowed.

I don't know, maybe I'm just the crazy one, but here's how I interpreted the kickstarter video:



Deep water would obviously be naval/amphibious only

Shallow would be shallow enough for ground units (and maybe even enough to build) and too shallow for naval. No gameplay effects required, but it could slow land units if you insist

Ground is ground

The actual coast line remains pretty simple while still preserving the aesthetic that was pitched

Re: Dust and Footprints

Agreed with Knickles. I'd sacrifice the gameplay effect of coasts being all "swirly" to get the aesthetic look of them in the game.

Re: Dust and Footprints

Da swirls, I wants them big, I wants them good! But seriously guys, if they're used as was mentioned just above i'd be so stoked the fire of my soul would be considered an active public security threat.

The swirls were the very first piece of art we saw and the first on that gave us the big news: "This is STYLIZED. AWAY WITH YE 'REALISTIC' GRAPHICS." They were the main reason i watched the trailer long enough to see the robots (that gives a very bad impression of my attention span, but i was on a short schedule the first time) and be utterly gob-smacked at what will eventually grow to be at least one of the coolest RTS's around.

On another note, the lighting engine managed to chip my right upper canine tooth. During the combat stream i was walking around the computer and then WHAM, BAM! Lights! Explosions! Violent photons everywhere! So my feet kept walking forward while my neck was craned back, i tripped over a power cord and fell with my face in a box of Legos.

Re: Dust and Footprints

Personally I like the current look that we've developed. It's just going to keep getting better. As Ben said it's not going to look exactly like the concept video. That's simply the reality of development and Ben gave a lot of the reasons why it's not always practical to copy a concept.

BTW I do think our look is very unique already. I would love for you guys to show me a game you think looks similar (and if you say Spore you automatically lose).

Re: Dust and Footprints

Um, Sushi Cat+ Amazing Contraption? :lol: