Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by nosebreaker, August 1, 2015.
Different system and situations, I dont have universal build.
I still don't see how you say a tank blob beats grens? Yes grens require some micro (and I state *some* this isn't 'hard' micro lets be clear on that). All you have to do with grens is retreat as the tanks approach. Grens stay in range, tanks all die without getting a shot off. Your statement of 'inferno + bolo beats grens mid game' is ludicrous because if the tanks can't get in range to shoot whilst getting shot at they die. There's no two ways about it.
In the current meta I've almost totally stopped building tanks full stop (AA is useful, infernos frankly are a waste of time as by the time they're useful which is when you're in your opponents base you've won already). Greens + dox + aa tanks + air beat everything else t1 and they're cheap.
4 Inferno (900 metal) vs 9 gren (900 metal)
4000 hp vs 360 dps = 11.1 sek
If this situation few they will spend all of your attention, I meanwhile can raise my economy and harass yours.
But that is just my style of play, if have good amp u can play without tanks.
Sounds plausible, though I wouldn't count myself as a very high apm player. If you are about one evening this week fancy experimenting with this?
I'll agree not to build tanks (except AA), you agree no bots and play a few games? Could even take air out of it if you like? What do you think would constitute a fair test?
You can never micro your grens do stay at perfect range from tanks and than still shoot them.. which means tanks get shots off.. The inferno's do 1 thing.. Pushing power. They dont need to kill (well buildings perhaps) but they just need to push forward and forward until they are in the middle of your base. With your own grens and ants it wreks dox and grens.
The tanks just have more pushing power and thats the big difference. You can either skimp the enemy base piece by piece while microing your grens. Or go full on pushin power and suddenly you need walls and lasers turrets
Yeah but again that relies on having your own grens.
Please tell me a winning build that precludes grens, and agreed if against a tank player ill defend with walls (dirt cheap) + grens.
If the attacker doesn't have grens they're screwed. That's my point, all good builds revolve around grens. Tanks are no longer a core choice and I actually think currently the bolo is nigh useless.
You can play bot only, you currently can't play tank only as the only counter to grens (land based) are bots.
If you purely look at tanks vs bots than it still depends on plain old numbers. in 1v1's you indeed don't get enough tanks out fast enough to roll the gren player. Also when you go pure bot you really realllyy rely on having air control. if you lose it you pretty much lost your match as bombers will just slap you around.
I havent figured out a "perfect" allround build but I do think ants still have a place albeit much less than they used to have Just like dox
As a anti-AI player, the Tanks still slaughter the Grenadiers.
So the balance right now is alright and fun, not that I'm a fan of discussing balance any more.
The AI right now is bugged; infernos beat AI controlled grenadiers. Your argument is invalid.
that´s actualy the thing ... pure tanks can push in all alone as they have aa going for them ...
bot need either vehicles or air for being able to savely advance ... air alone is just throwing glasscannons at your enemy and if he puts even some static aa down that´s pretty much a no fly zone ... however pure air against pure bots = air wins cause dox aa is rather bad ... so realy i think it´s ok ..
where i think bot could compensate against air should be t2 with an additional flakbot ... that might still be outranged by hornets but then you would have gil-e´s with you f.e. and otherwise shredd anything air ...
so yes to T2 flakbot?
tbh.. I think its in a pretty good spot. yes you can go pure tank. BUT.. a player who combines bots and tanks has the superior army. you pretty much need everything because of its roles. Bots really dont need AA. if they get AA than ditch the spinner. its 1 or the other imo. I love how both T2 bots and tanks are equally viable with each their niche. T2 air is still.. crap lol except for the T2 fighter.
The thing what I like is that the composition matters more now than ever. You go Inferno gren.. sure just know you get beaten by ant-gren and there are loads of those kinds of combo´s possible each playes diffrently and acts diffrent.
Scouting is more important than ever and Dox only is history. I mean it.
well i haven´t said tanks only is neccesarily a good idea .. it CAN work
regarding t2 flakbot well if you were going bots only than that would be the point you would want a aa replacement but you would have to go t2 for it ... it still would be however inferior in range ...
regarding t2 air .. idk i find kestrels pretty good against ground .. and hornets feel quite usefull for sniping ground aa .. but that´s just me ..
T1 bot AA and t1 tank AA is only one or the other if they're implemented poorly.
Not all anti-air need function the same; indeed, I'd rather all anti-air weapons functioned differently. The T1 mobile AA should both compliment each other in ways that mean having both together is beneficial.
What is this "anti-grenadier" build that you mention? It doesn't take much metal in spinners to prevent bombers from touching you, no? Infernos prevent booms from touching grens, as does a small amount of metal in doxen.
well the problem with air is mostly how it behaves. Kestrels and hornets are indeed pretty solid units. It's just that they like hugging AA so much, especially hornets. they just WONT stay out of AA range. which makes them unusable.
and Ohw yes Tank Only can work. thats good. they are slow and most of the time your main army. Bots supplement them and have the most variaties with their roles. Now I think of it, it might be nice to have AA bot aswell, no spinner, that does require a nerf in dox damage and a gren nerf. this would make all bots a support role for the tanks.
ANYWAY. personally there are only a few things that should get some love but overal the game and balance is really really solid.
my personal gripe at the moment is for the most part any tactical missile launcher (blue hawk, catapult and stingray)
they severly lack range imho (yea maybe add hornets to that as well then) considering the rather slow projectilespeed lack of aoe and low firerate ..
I agree with that They can definitetly use some love. most likely in range and velocity, not so much in damage and maybe small aoe. just.. some love
Velocity isn't issue, the low range and lack of AoE is.
i would consider aoe even secondary as you have that already with shellers,pelters holkins and leviathans ..
i personaly would them have be long range bunkerbusters ..
Shellers are inaccurate. Tac missiles with a little AoE would allow you to destroy a group of dox with precision using bluehawks.
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