Does Not Compute

Might want to watch some of Firemans videos and look for yourself what does more DPS when juiced.

I don't believe we were talking about juiced damage. Either way, if something has more DPS unjuiced, it's going to have more DPS juiced.

Nobody cares about unjuiced damage on the moneyball. That is pointless. You don't juice to kill everything around a moneyball that is down. You juice for the moneyball if you want to win.

Try it out yourself. I take your ball down faster as an assault with juice available than you as a gunner.

The thing is, the bots tend to line up in such a way while walking it is easy to take out everything in 5 railgun shots. However the bots tend to walk far enough apart that the explosive range of the grenade launcher will typically leave at least 1 black jack at full health still. It is rare to only have to fire 5-6 grenade launcher shots to kill an entire wave.

I meant grenade launcher when I said "grenade launcher" not the gunners mortar (which does awful dps vs the moneyball." the minigun however does FANTASTIC damage and is the single highest damage output weapon against the moneyball period.

So Tank charges me, I try and dodge his charge (can be difficult as only at the VERY apex of the jump are you high enough to dodge the charge.) If you f' it up you die to knockdown + jetgun. If you make it well.. Good job now you charge away and... the tank recharges his charge 25% faster than you. So He is going to charge you again well before you can.

Jump jets slow you down, sure high ground is nice but if you are above the tank, you aren't really fighting him he is just going to move on to somewhere else. If you follow him then you are going to be on level ground. If you use jump jets to try and stay above him, not only will he catch up to you but your accuracy will be TERRIBLE and his accuracy is still 100% perfect while using the jetgun.

Use the bomb? Sounds good on paper except it has a fairly long cooldown on anything but level 3 and has an arm timer that the tank can attempt to close the distance before it arms.

Honestly all of this comes down the fact the Assault has to work significantly harder for similar results than the tank. Is the assault still viable? Totally. Is the assault still a force to be feared in good hands? Of course. But two players of identical skill level, the tank is simply going to be more effective at pro killing/bot killing/turret killing/sniper harassment/jackbot killing/juice rushing and nearly as effective at moneyball damage (not quite though, but it is made up for by the fact he builds juice SO much easier than the assault.)

Yes as a juiced assault you will take the moneyball down faster than an unjuiced gunner. Because you are effectively 3 times as powerful.

Now a juiced gunner vs a juiced assault? Sorry gunner wins. Even with the additional damage from assaults passive 3 AND from the critical hit endorsement. He still loses to gunner. 86*3.5 = 301dps. 249 * 3 = 747

Juice doesn't make your skills regen any faster so even adding in the 75dps from the bomb he is almost exactly HALF the gunner's dps vs moneyball.

The bots are at first lined up so that two black jacks are right next to each other and later they go in a triangle.
You'd have to position yourself right and try to hit the bots perfectly. Not exactly a good strategy.

Unless you go around a corner or something like that there is no reason not to see a tank and when you do you keep your distance. If you get into his charge range you already failed and deserve to die.

Hovering above a tank and shooting him is easy and effective. This combined with clever bomb placement makes escaping somewhat difficult.

Maybe it's because I run a pub build but I have absolutely no problems killing tanks while hovering and I'm not a good assault.

I start to think that you can't actually play assault or you are just bad at it and can't deal with tanks at all. Might want to watch some of Xenonox's stuff.

Edit: Why you think the gunner is unjuiced I don't know.
Apparently you never tried this whole juicing thing. For you too: watch Fireman's stuff

You remember how everybody said the gunners moneyball damage is broken? No? Me neither, I can think of something like that with the assault though. Hmm...

First of all, no **** shirlock, I know how to play, but thanks for assuming I don't. Minigun has higher DPS unjuiced, and THAT WILL STAND TRUE EVEN WHEN JUICE ALGORITHM IS APPLIED. That was the point I was trying to prove.

And no.

And replying to your post above mine, as it was posted as I was typing this:

Great job at ignoring the biggest point of Eternals (Imo), the fact that Juiced Gunner will beat Juiced Assault.

Actually, I understand entirely from where Killien is coming, but just one thing he did not consider.
He was not really whining.
But he just did not understand the reason why others were whining.

He would not have made this topic if he did.

I tried to explain it on neutral grounds but got flamed. He seems to think I attacked him or something.


L. Spiro

Not ignoring it, just saying that assault deals more damage (which he does).

And you guys might want to actually check your facts before talking smack.

Juiced gunner with RoF/Acc/Armor (my pub build) deals about 50%.
Juiced assault with RoF/Acc/Armor (again, pub build) deals about 70%.

I even made a nice little video for you two guys so you can actually see it, maybe that will help.
I also made a mistake and blew myself away so you can feel just a little bit better about yourself and your gunner.

Next time try something or learn what modifiers are.

Just going to leave this here for the moment. Maybe you'll actually read it this time.

Yeah OT will surely change the outcome...

This is statement is wrong, when comparing the two classes, it is more like this:

Tank

+ good bot killer
+ good turret killer

Assault

+ best pro killer
+ joint top two moneyball killer (with sin)

before the nerf i would say assault was the best pro killer, after the nerf i really do not think this is the case, as killien said tank beats him in every way, before nerf tanks were pretty ineffective vs assault if both players were evenly skilled. imo.

Actually Assassin is third in MB damage

Ordered highest to lowest, base RoF/magazine

Minigun(solo/dual)
GL
Shotgun
Shurikens
Jetgun
SMG
HH(not sure, no modifiers found for MB, assuming 1x)
AR
Mortarx3
SniperRifle
Railgun
Sword
Mortarx2
Dagger
Mortarx1

Killien, did you factor in that with level 3 deploy, you don't have to reload as a tank with your jetgun? Because over time, thatll make the Jetgun much better in that list. Juiced level 3 deployed tank point blank with jetgun is brutal. Especially since he heals so fast, and can survive a bomb right on top of his noggen.
----

The assault has much more mobility. Compare an assault and tank with the same setup..

Gold armor, silver rate of fire, bronze skill recovery

---

Tank Milestones:
Gold armor:
Survives katana lunge + front stab.
Survives katana lunge backstab w/ level 2 health passive
Survives 1 heashot w/ lvl 3 health passive

Silver RoF:
Makes railgun useful, gold vs silver rof is minor difference between jetgun

Bronze Skill:
Makes product grenade spammable/viable. Best in slot.

....

Assault Milestones:
Gold Armor:
Survive kunai backstabs, katana front stabs (does not survive katana lunge frontstabs/backstabs, might survive kunai lunge front stabs). Survives level 3 bomb (no armor means you die from a level 3 assault bomb, most of the time. Either directly, or right after from the burn.)

Silver RoF:
NO difference between Gold and Silver for the AR. Best in slot.

Bronze Skill:
Makes bomb spammable.

-----


Differences between the two:
Assault has: OHK on all classes regardless of armor endorse/overhealing (headcrab), Fly, smaller hitbox, jumps higher, two grapples, is much faster walking wise, can bomb jump, and can use charge to travel in midair much faster. Jump spam + jets makes being grabbed/headshot MUCH harder.

Tank has: Larger hit box, is slower, no guaranteed OHK, much large health (only two things OHK's a level 3 health passive, gold armor tank; head crabs, and pancakes), and much higher damage up close.

Basically, it's comparing apples to oranges. The Assault has much more mobility, even with the charge nerfs. The tank has much more health and damage up close. If both stood still, the AR with silver ROF would lose to even a no RoF jetgun at point blank.

Interestingly enough, both avoid one hit kills in their own way. Tanks just are so beefy that they can brunt being shot in the head or katana back grabbed, while assaults avoid most OHK's just by being so hard to hit by constantly jumping and using their jets. The assault trades health for mobility. The tank trades mobility for the highest health in the game, and the best close range damage. They even out damage gunners at close range if you factor in that they can interrupt the gunners minigun with their level 3 charge, and avoid the ground pound.

Overall, comparing to their charges when both are used in totally different ways, for two totally different classes is silly.

Now, can we all agree to give the Assassin the assaults level 3 charge? Thank you.

No, it's the raw DPS which basically assumes all magazines are infinite

Actually there is. While both Gold/Silver will drain out a mag in the same span of time, the Gold RoF causes the AR to act like a Dual Minigun, wherein it spits out an extra bullet here and there
I tested the crap out of that one. Had a friend act as a target dummy and recorded how long it took him to die or the magazine to run out(no skill upgrades, Assault endorsements used were Gold/Silver RoF then Speed/Juice to negate mag/reload screwing with the results). Followed by tearing out the raw frames of the video and comparing when firing started to where either the mag was drained or death occured.

In all videos Gold RoF on the AR either killed the target at least 1 second faster or left him with noticably less health than Silver

Headcrab is survivable, but rare
Tested on a Gunner with no armor/passives/overhealing. He survived the initial headcrab while Juiced, but the burn eventually did him in.
Bacon+Juiced allowed him to live with a sliver of health

Didn't test much beyond that, but a combination of Juice + Armor/Overheal/Passives will allow a player to survive a headcrab

Grats you managed to figure out that certain endorsements are more effective for certain classes. You tried RoF/Acc/Reload or Rof/Acc/Clipsize on that gunner instead? Or how about Skill/RoF/Acc or Armor/RoF/skill on the assault which are all common setups as well?

i timed it, both take about 9 seconds, with the assault nades/bomb vs the gunners dualmini/deploy
you did miss 1 nade so it took a bit less damage but it was still in its blast range so not all got lost, i would say this to compensate for you directly standing against the ball in the first place when you started.
I dont usually do that because a heavy will still break an assault who is juiced so there would be some loss in time for travel distance at the start.

Also, how friendly your description is:

just saying.

Also, about the tanks speed, ever met a tank with bronze speed? you might not consider this in your build yourself but it quite hurts.
i myself main tank and assault, same as a friend of mine and we both have played enough vs eachother as either class.
saying OMG HURRDURR U SHOULD BE ON HIGHER GROUND isnt always that viable either, a good sniper or if the other team has a few tank will effectively keep you from the highgrounds.
if a tank tries to hold the highgrounds there isnt much you can do to stop him from it unless you manage a headcrab or ringout, both which can be easily prevented if the tank is somewhat competent.
Escape for the assault isnt always viable either, most of the times if you try to run from a tank youll already be halfdead and prob burning, running on the same lvl will get you killed with a charge or slowly burned to dead by the tip of the jetgun.

Also as a little added something, thanks to the hopeless damage falloff and accurecy of the AR even if your on highgrounds, if you can do damage to the tank, so can the tank do to you.

Im not saying the assault is broken, imo the debuff was needed although maybe a bit hard for being nerfed to much in 1 go but saying that the assault vs tank is still as easy or as viable is bullshit.

tbh heavies are prob the most deadly thing in this game now, a good heavy will outdamage you on any range while looking almost indestructible thanks to gold armor.
And a bomb isnt always an option either, either because of range, because of a fairly horrible cooldown, esp if its not lvl3 or because the enemy isnt a retard.

not saying anything should change for now but if it does lets hope its for the better but saying just because the assault is able to kill a tank the tank is fine in every way is just nonsense.
The charge IS bloody fast, combined with his high hp and bot/turret/pro killing capabilities i would say he IS the new "assault" (like the assault was before, a force to be reckoned with regardless of who playes him)

So yes, i can understand why OP would ask the questions he asked.
From what i can say from most comment i would say most people dit NOT understand his post.

he didnt say a single word that either of them should gett buffed or nerfed.
He just wondered why its ok for the tank, being the heaviest and slowest class ingame, should deserve to use his charge for everything the assault got nerfed for.

So yes, if you look it from that point it does not compute, its like having a fat guy outrun an athlete in a marathon irl.

Now, for some observation from someone outside this conflict, as both an assault and tank player, it does look like some people are just completely paranoid about any critics the tank might get, like assuming OP want to nerf the entire class to ****.
so that tells me we might have some tank players that are afraid to lose their "godpowers" on their tank if it DOES get nerfed or some elitists that just assume others cant play for **** because THEY dont see the problem.

Either one, its not very attractive in a person to act like that (or just oldfashion nice for that matter).
Now please resume whatever you were doing, i know this post prob wont help much and i willl most likely get flamed for it anyway.
Also im not insulting anyone with what i said above, you are your own judge to what group of people you belong or what you believe in.

you forgot to add that assaults will more often than not survive a ringout

with all the qq about assaults bomb and charge i say give it back to them and nerf fly down to gunner/tank level

well theres your problem add in the reload time to your dps figures and all of a sudden gunners ball damage takes a nosedive

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole

While juiced with no endorsements it would be 1.25 seconds to reload.
With Gold Reload it would be 0.77 seconds.
With Silver Reload 0.92 seconds.
With Bronze it would be around 1 second.
And Gunner's clipsize is very large, so you shouldn't need to worry about it.