Do we need tech levels?

Yea i mean getting to tech 2 was never game breaking. If you were on a map like OP for example and you both had captured the mass on your side, you would be pumping out T1 to stay alive and keep your extractors/ performing raids. If some1 switched to tech 2 that just ment the other person had more T1 and could perform raids easier. It did not mean the first person to T2 won the game.

However if you were on a map like Theta T2 was much more useful as the map was not as big so raids were not as easy and the range of T2 could win you the game.

There were so many strategies in that game is was not a case of i will get some T3 land units then i will win the game lol. It was so much deeper than that.

I think most people who were not as skilled as that played on much bigger maps and maybe used the later tech levels more cus they could not control the early game that well. Maybe. But even then T1 drops could slow a player to nothing if they just went eco.

Dam i loved that game. Best RTS of all time.
Very closely followed by TA =)

I think the important thing to remember is that what people are concerned about losing is unit diversity and a muddying the waters between the definition of unit roles.

The fact is that unit roles changed in SupCom because of the way that units were superseded by units from the next tech level, forcing them to take on new roles as the game progressed. This was particularly confusing for new players and made it harder to pin a unit down to a specific role. It's quite a departure from how TA worked.

There is absolutely no reason why units shouldn't or couldn't have a specific role that they fulfil for the entire game without taking away depth. In the end it is more about the strategic and tactical options that the units provide and by simply having a large pool of units with plenty of diversity it is possible to create the exact same dynamic.

By providing the player with two tech levels it is possible to employ a similar system to TA with a large pool of units for the player to choose from. Each with it's own niche role that it fulfils. This means that there will be no redundancy throughout the unit pool and makes it clearer what each unit's purpose in the game is from the outset.

It would be easy to create this by placing the starting pool of units in T1 and making them good all round units for general use. This means they have no outstanding weaknesses or strengths when compared to units in the more advanced T2 pool. T2 units would be specialised and have distinctive strengths and weaknesses.

Examples of T1 might be: Scouts, main battle tanks, assault kbots, fighter jets, bombers.
Examples of T2 might be: Snipers, raiders, damage soakers, CQC kbots, gunships.

An example of how units' roles changed in SupCom would be how our topic favourite, the mantis was the main assault bot when T1 was the only tech on the field. At T1 it was the toughest Cybran land unit, but as the game progressed beyond T1 it's effectiveness in this role reduced until it became useful for little more than raiding and harassment. My question is: Why would it hurt to have separate units that specifically fulfil these roles from the beginning of the game?

EDITED X1: Typos.
EDITED X2: More typos!

I think they will use a system like in Company of Heroes was given.
You´re not going to create a NEW tech stage, you UNLOCK the next unit tree.
In Company of heroes you had to unlock all units with changing the phase with the Wehrmacht.Lower units were not unused ever.
In PA we could use this system.
Lower units might be less powerful but they can be faster or harder to hit because they are so little.
Do not forget the Rule:
ONE might be Strong but together THEY are stronger.

PEEWEE! >:C

Those who can understand, already understood.
The following video is the last chance to understand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHSQvTg55M
If you still don't understand go play supcom 2.

I thought I knew what you are on about ta4life, but 20 minutes of that video and I have to say you need to either point to some part of the video or just choose a better video to make people understand.... whatever it is you want them to understand.

Watch out, ta4life will say have just "lost all [your] credibility" if you couldn't miraculously gather understanding from a video. :lol:

On the topic of videos, ta4life said he'd make us one. Still haven't seen it posted yet.

I don't really see what kind of point wasting 1.5 hours of time watching someone else play a game could make.

I don't really see what kind of point wasting 1.5 seconds reading someone else comment on a game could make.

:roll:

What game, I thought this was one of those forum activities?

"Take this video and the comments from this guy. Now see how many ways you can come up with to distort, destroy and argue about the proposed idea without having any practical data to back your claims. The more bitter and drawn our the argument, the better."

This forum is the best version of the game I have seen yet. Personally I cannot wait to play Seton's DotaCraft 2 with the complexity level set to "Dwarf Fortress" thanks to all the optional features everyone has suggested turned on.

..
..

Oh right, I need to be on topic, well then.

Something about tech levels. More than 0. Less than 7.

FA had three, plus a level for super-units. I think that was too many, and I've explained why I think that's the case.

I think two would, with an optional third level for super-units (comet rockets basically), would be much more appropriate.

Probably none at all. But at least you only wasted 1.5 seconds.

Though I have considered just stopping with posting as it really is quite pointless. But the tech updates are worth reading.

How did you waste only 1.5 seconds? That seems like quite a small amount of time.

@BulletMagnet: Unless Uber come up with a good reason unit-composition wise to justify a full third tier I agree with you completely.

There's no reason the third tier has to be full. It would just be leftover units that were "too strong/good/expensive for 2nd tier".

I am not going to spend an hour of my life making a video for this thread, where as soon as I say I will make a video I get people saying it won't make any difference.
If you are not interested in watching the finals of the most competitive Supcom FA tourney, then you are probably not interested in this type of game. If you were interested you would see how the different tiers make the game diverse, how the game goes through transitions and where the choice to go T1 to T2 or T2 to T3 is a life or death decision.

If you want people to show you something you have to take information from outside of your own delusions. That is what I have tried to do in this thread, with videos and descriptions of entire factions. I didn't just say "1 tier is stupid because I think so". I will say however, that people who don't even take the time to watch the game, shouldn't have opinions about it. The game being Supcom FA.(I am making the assumption that if PA neglects the lessons of Supcom FA and dumbs things down, it will regret it in the long run)

We have TA and Supcom FA as the predecessors and we have little to no information about PA gameplay. Therefore any discussion of PA and tiers must include examples from those previous games, not delusions from people who don't like those previous games.

You think we are discussing having 1 Tier?

:roll:

With a name like TA4life you think he would know what we are actually talking about.

igncom1, don't try to understand what I am thinking. You will fail.

For those interested in tiers watch the battle that start at minute 20 in the finals video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHSQvTg55M

For those who don't get it.

Go to page 31 and start over.

You will see two things:

2-3 Tiers add a layer of complexity to the game, that allows for control over what unit can be produced not just by what mass/energy income the player has but what tech units they chose to invest in as well as what tech units the were able to save from enemy assaults.

Second, you will see how a number of people on this thread have nothing to say except disagreements, which are shown to be false. However the thread often goes off topic and once the discussion comes back to tiers a group of people whose arguments were shown false claims that they were right all along and completely ignores the previous discussion.

So, an hour of your time is worth too much, while everyone else's 90 minutes is fine so long as they watch a video that "proves your point"?

Heck, I even offered to help with the making of the video, but I guess you missed that.

Also I think calling a recent tournament "the most competitive Supcom FA tourney" is possibly a touch of exaggeration(maybe the most competitive of it's time), I think you're better off going back (at least) 2-3 years when we still had the Likes of TLO(among others of course, but TLO is the only name I'm certain of off-hand) playing SupCom Competitively, on Ladder and in Tournaments.

Do you happen to have a list of the participants for the Finals of the Tournament you linked too? I'd be curious to see if I recognize any of the names.

Mike

sounds like you have been living under a rock as far as Supcom FA is concerned
http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtop ... =26&t=2005
Look at the first post in that thread that has all the names.
Voodoo rock pebble lu_xun csoller crazedchariot, armmagedon, isen

TLO would not be competitive in this tourney, they way he played back in the day. The game has really progressed. He actually said this in his interview when he saw some supcom FA games, the game got a lot more strategic and people play much better. (sorry it was actually Sir_Loui who said this, but Sir_Loui wiped the floor with TLO everytime they played)

I am sure that if he was to come back, he would not need more than a week or two to become one of the better players.(Don't misconstrue my words above)

PS

Exactly my point: I won't spend an hour making a video, that people won't take an hour to watch and will just **** all over it like they have done over everything I have said so far.

*Head Desk*

I just realized this is a 2V2 Tourney, It's a totally different Meta-game and not really applicable to talking about game balance built around 1V1.

Actually I was just pointing out how you're putting yourself on a pedestal above us "Commoners".

What if I offered to handle all the recording, editing and uploading? Is your time still more valuable than mine?

Mike