Discussion: Early Game Commander Rushes

You've obviously haven't watched any of ZaphodX's latest Army match casts.

He always Commander rushes and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

He scouts you, finds out where there's fewest commanders, and then moves in with 1 more Commander than you have. Because the game is so early on, there's no counter to the Commanders other than having 1 more Commander than your opponent, which is bad gameplay.

It's tricky because the commander's main purpose, I think, is to help stop early rushes. How do you keep him effective against early rushes while not making him into a rusher?

I still think TA's mutual destruction is the best answer so far. I see you coming, I charge out to meet you, we both detonate in the field and kill each other, safely away from our bases. Or you pass me and head into my base and I keep walking to head to yours. Of course, if you have 2 commanders in the area and I only have 1, your second one can come in and wreck the place but still, the best you can hope for is 1 commander killed for 1 commander lost.

Presently you can kill a commander with a commander without losing yours. In fact, explosion damage is so low that it's hard to lose both commanders.

That's why it's so broken.


(Also, under M.A.D., rushing 1 commander with 3 would be stupid. You'd kill the 1 and his detonation would kill all 3 of yours. Presently, rushing 1 commander with 3 is guaranteed easy-mode easy-win.)

There are wayy to many ways to counter commander rushes to make them o OP. They arn`t the best strategy as you can use your rushing commanders for building up your eco, rushing out your units or not being one commander closer to losing the game.[/quote]

You've obviously haven't watched any of ZaphodX's latest Army match casts.

He always Commander rushes and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

He scouts you, finds out where there's fewest commanders, and then moves in with 1 more Commander than you have. Because the game is so early on, there's no counter to the Commanders other than having 1 more Commander than your opponent, which is bad gameplay.[/quote]

Here`s a pro tip if you`re only getting your information off of one source you`re opening yourself up to becoming the definition of being biased.

Also many of these players can counter ZaphodX`s actions with quick counters which I have suggested. Many of the tactics he employs are never counted effectively with pelters nor are they countered with T2. These players bases are also crowded and lack a lot of the micro that ZaphodX can employ. Many of the games I have casted also contain commander rushes but are not as devastating as you have demonstrated due to the counters teams can employ on commanders.

This

or this are good examples

In fact any of the commander wars games can show off the problems with commanders.

If the source of your criticism is one above average player using a tactic that isnt effectively countered due to the players that hes fighting against not utilizing good counters to defeat his strategy than I find the entirety of your argument useless.

And like I said before hand multiple planets and different unit types will also destroy commander rushes altogether so if they are OP as you say they are then wait a little bit more because soon they`re going to be extinct like the dinosaurs.

You've obviously haven't watched any of ZaphodX's latest Army match casts.

He always Commander rushes and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

He scouts you, finds out where there's fewest commanders, and then moves in with 1 more Commander than you have. Because the game is so early on, there's no counter to the Commanders other than having 1 more Commander than your opponent, which is bad gameplay.[/quote]

Here`s a pro tip if you`re only getting your information off of one source you`re opening yourself up to becoming the definition of being biased.

Also many of these players can counter ZaphodX`s actions with quick counters which I have suggested. Many of the tactics he employs are never counted effectively with pelters nor are they countered with T2. These players bases are also crowded and lack a lot of the micro that ZaphodX can employ. Many of the games I have casted also contain commander rushes but are not as devastating as you have demonstrated due to the counters teams can employ on commanders.

This

or this are good examples

In fact any of the commander wars games can show off the problems with commanders.

If the source of your criticism is one above average player using a tactic that isnt effectively countered due to the players that hes fighting against not utilizing good counters to defeat his strategy than I find the entirety of your argument useless.

And like I said before hand multiple planets and different unit types will also destroy commander rushes altogether so if they are OP as you say they are then wait a little bit more because soon they`re going to be extinct like the dinosaurs.[/quote]

strange the quote reply didn`t work

damn computer

You've obviously haven't watched any of ZaphodX's latest Army match casts.

He always Commander rushes and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

He scouts you, finds out where there's fewest commanders, and then moves in with 1 more Commander than you have. Because the game is so early on, there's no counter to the Commanders other than having 1 more Commander than your opponent, which is bad gameplay.[/quote]

Here`s a pro tip if you`re only getting your information off of one source you`re opening yourself up to becoming the definition of being biased.

Also many of these players can counter ZaphodX`s actions with quick counters which I have suggested. Many of the tactics he employs are never counted effectively with pelters nor are they countered with T2. These players bases are also crowded and lack a lot of the micro that ZaphodX can employ. Many of the games I have casted also contain commander rushes but are not as devastating as you have demonstrated due to the counters teams can employ on commanders.

This

or this are good examples

In fact any of the commander wars games can show off the problems with commanders.

If the source of your criticism is one above average player using a tactic that isnt effectively countered due to the players that hes fighting against not utilizing good counters to defeat his strategy than I find the entirety of your argument useless.

And like I said before hand multiple planets and different unit types will also destroy commander rushes altogether so if they are OP as you say they are then wait a little bit more because soon they`re going to be extinct like the dinosaurs.[/quote]

You (wrongly) assume I watch only one caster. He's simply the easiest and most common example.

I watch just about every cast that is put onto PA Matches and many casts that aren't put onto. I guarantee you that I've watched more Planetary Annihilation gameplay than you have.

There are many counters to Commander rushes – but those are mid game counters. There is no viable counter to Commanders rushing in the opening 5 minutes, except 1 more Commander than your opponent.

Your options are, built lots of defenses to counter a commander rush, but then lose late game because you didn't expand and have no eco. Or focus on a proper opening build and establishing proper eco, and lose to a Commander rush.

I wouldn't have a problem with very powerful laser defences if we had suitable siege units.

Here`s a pro tip if you`re only getting your information off of one source you`re opening yourself up to becoming the definition of being biased.

Also many of these players can counter ZaphodX`s actions with quick counters which I have suggested. Many of the tactics he employs are never counted effectively with pelters nor are they countered with T2. These players bases are also crowded and lack a lot of the micro that ZaphodX can employ. Many of the games I have casted also contain commander rushes but are not as devastating as you have demonstrated due to the counters teams can employ on commanders.

This

or this are good examples

In fact any of the commander wars games can show off the problems with commanders.

If the source of your criticism is one above average player using a tactic that isnt effectively countered due to the players that hes fighting against not utilizing good counters to defeat his strategy than I find the entirety of your argument useless.

And like I said before hand multiple planets and different unit types will also destroy commander rushes altogether so if they are OP as you say they are then wait a little bit more because soon they`re going to be extinct like the dinosaurs.[/quote]

You (wrongly) assume I watch only one caster. He's simply the easiest and most common example.

I watch just about every cast that is put onto PA Matches and many casts that aren't put onto. I guarantee you that I've watched more Planetary Annihilation gameplay than you have.

There are many counters to Commander rushes – but those are mid game counters. There is no viable counter to Commanders rushing in the opening 5 minutes, except 1 more Commander than your opponent.

Your options are, built lots of defenses to counter a commander rush, but then lose late game because you didn't expand and have no eco. Or focus on a proper opening build and establishing proper eco, and lose to a Commander rush.[/quote]

I don`t mean to assume but the way you showed him as an example and only using one source made me make it. Next time show off multiple different sources of different casters.
My mistake.

I have not watched as many games as you because I rather play or cast the game rather than watch someone else play it. Also I don`t like the style the other casters utilize.

Not really pelters arn`t mid game. Also theres again a lot downsides to using up one or more commanders such less build power or natural defenses against raids. Another counter to commander rushes I have not touched upon would be a base race situation in which you rush his base down with different units or better yet sprawling your base out.

You`re generalizing way too much on very little findings and there are severe negatives towards the commander rushes. The other player is risking way too much eco on the line for a small lead. Same situation happens in Red Alert or Tiberium in which players who rush with MCVS will have a weaker eco and have there original base destroyed due to raids.

Also Doxes and ants arn`t mid game at all they are early game as well as pelters.

I think you`re also not taking into consideration the map size of a team game. If the map is super long than a commander rush is going to obvs. be OP but on a decent size map or a huge one its pretty risky

The fun fact about a Commander's Death blast is that it is ONLY doing having an effect in team games(because in a 1v1 the commander exploding is the win condition, anything that happens after is in-consequential) so we can safely make changes to the way it works without affecting the "core" 1v1 game.

To that end, why don't we just do what SupCom did? Yeah it was one of the more arbitrary things in SupCom, but it worked. As a starting point at the very least.

Mike

Are you saying the explosions for commanders are cosmetic?

The commander rush is a part of the game. (see: why anything) I've been the victim of it a few times and seens many of em in replay's.

I only see one problem with them: A single player can control multiple commanders. So in a 5 vs 5 a single player can take 3-4 commanders and go hunting. The other 4 focus on base building eco, defence, tech 2, ect.

I think this is what makes commander rushes a bit to easy. The solution would be to to make every commander only controllable by one player. Anything else is shared as normal for team armies.

Now commander rushes are still possible. But a 3 commander rush would take 3 people. Taking much of the focus away from the starting base.

It seams to me commander rushes are a symptom of a bigger problem: commander scalability. In the beginning of the game the commander is strong; however, in the late game he is weak, while this works for 1v1 it definitely does not work for team games. The solution seams obvious.

Upgrades

Now I know many people don't like upgrades, but it seams the only way for the commander to maintain balance for the duration of the game. With upgrades the commander can be very weak in the early game, as to solve the problem raised in this thread, yet become strong enough to weather the nuclear holistic of the late game. It is the perfect solution.

In a 1v1 yes. The Game is decided when a Commander dies, anything past that point doesn't matter in regards to the outcome.

Assuming you want to avoid draws as much as possible of course, I think that's a fair assumption to make honestly.

Unless you're saying the death blast should be an upgrade this doesn't apply. Regardless the Commander is supposed to be Strong(in terms of combat power) early game, that's kinda the point after all. This strength is held back in a 1v1 because that Commander IS teh win condition. The Problem this thread is trying to address is that in Games with Teams and Multiple Commanders it is possible to use the Commander's Death blast(which is NOT factored into Combat Power) as an offensive weapon because as long as you hold on to at least one commander there is no penalty for the entire team.

That is what needs solving.

Mike

This is Neutrino's response to commander upgrades. There are other ways to solve the problem of early rushing of commanders then resorting to Upgrades.

If you are unaware both the dgun and commander explosion would result in another commanders instant death in TA.

Where I agree that this could/would stop the 4 v 3 acu rushes etc it will cause the same difficulties we have in TA.

Commander rules in TA are pretty much no rushing him before 15 mins in team games and no dgunning enemy commander or rushing starting base in 1v1.

Both of these options do work, however with automatic ladders and obviously the rule breakers it is too hard to police or find out who actually won the game.

As has been mentioned splitting up starting locations would help a lot but still won't fully prevent it.

PDs are OP as is so I don't like the idea of making them stronger.

I have mentioned it before that I think the acu gun is too strong but noticed since this was the case in faf. Would the issue in the op be an issue in faf? If not why?

I'm assuming you're talking to me here in regards to doing things like in SupCom? I'm not sure what points your trying to make in regards to what points have been previously presented.

In particular I'm confused in regards to this "Both of these options do work, however with automatic ladders and obviously the rule breakers it is too hard to police or find out who actually won the game."

To me this would require some different system to weed out draws, you need some way to be sure that "X Commander died first", something like a slight delay before the death blast goes off for example and/or making sure that once a commander dies that stops any other elements from effecting who won.

Mike

Was just asking in general, was this an issue in faf and if not why. Just curious as I can talk about the TA side of the game but know pretty much nothing about faf. I would imagine it wasnt considered due to symmetric spawns etc.

Was talking about the 15 minute no rushing and 1v1 rules which are used in TA. They work in TA because the ladder is manual and not automatic. If you get dgunned in TA defeat may come up. So if it was an automatic ladder you would be issued the loss even though your opponent broke the rules and you actually won.

Yeah as I mentioned above when you add rules like a com rush timer and specific win conditions it is extrememly hard to use the automatic ladder without having ladder mods that watch each case.

Dave

I don't know much about the balance of FAF, but in 'stock' FA it was never really a problem, an ACU's Death blast wasn't capable of killing other ACUs unless they were at about 1/3rd HP(I think) due to a special armor type and even Overcharge was adjusted as well, ACU Deathblast and OC also did reduced damage to Structures. It was pretty arbitrary, but it was very limited and simple to understand and most important of all, it worked.

These sound like something completely separate, this thread is mostly trying to figure out the scenarios where teams have multiple commanders and can sacrifice all but one to do massive damage with little overall effect on thier team's performance(relatively speaking, the Commander is a good building, but it can't replace a base's worth on stuff single handedly) and any effects on 1v1s come down more of the Uber Weapon than the death blast itself and probably warrants it's own thread should it turn out to be an issue.

Mike

Neutrion is concerned about the commander becoming a micro intensive unit that wins games. I to don't want the commander to become the micro and you win tool. I'm not talking about upgrades like jet packs and guns. All I propose is a simple health upgrade that can be applied to the commander mid game. With this in place the commanders base health can be lowered to reduce the effectiveness of early rushes.

But the Problem isn't the Commander's Health, it's the damage it does when it blows up and the fact that it's not critical to keep alive in a team game! Upgrades don't solve that problem.

Mike

Stop repeating this statement, its wrong. You can defend with the same amount of commanders that your enemy sends in.

People seem to be forgetting a few things. The defender has the initial advantage in the fight. They can get new units to the battle sooner and tip the balance in there favor. Ofcouse there is the massive disadvantage that you lose a chunk of base, but that happens after you win/lose.

Also people forget that in team games you have much more eco and much more build power. It doesn't take long to rush a Pelter or a few factories and get units rolling out.

I do think commander rushing is a problem, but they aren't too hard to counter if your not stuck in a rigid build order.