Commander Reclaim Ruins PA

Discussion in 'PA: TITANS: General Discussion' started by exodusesports, June 17, 2016.

  1. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    If you reduce the metal cost of the commander he will also be very easy to repair. What you get out of this is a commander rush with 5 combatfabbers which will heal the commander very easily since it's metal cost is so low. This will end up in boombot rushes most of the time on small to medium maps.
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  2. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    You get it.
    The combat fabricators repair a fixed amount of metal per second rather than fixed amount of HP per second.
    This is quite strange.
  3. river39

    river39 Active Member

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    an option could be to change the reclaim/repair to health per second and you gain the amount of metal associated with the health reclaimed. then lowering the metal value could work.
    This is probably not realizable in this game.
  4. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    Why?

    We already have the patch for community mods.
    Tuning the units price and HP is much easier than providing a community patch, isn't it?
    It is highly possible to get more patches for some important balance issues.

    We may also buff some units which are too weak for current version, such as typhoon and omega.
  5. Corgiarmy

    Corgiarmy Active Member

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    I would enjoy more com boxing, boomboting, and com healing. This sounds exciting!

    So is this really an arguement for com reclaim?
  6. walmartdialup

    walmartdialup Active Member

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    I got around to trying both mods and they both appear to fix the problem. I wish uber could release a small patch to fix this quickly.

    Personally, I like the extra speed boost the commander got in flub's mod. In the matches I played with it, there was a lot more com pushing, forward expansion and close encounters. I always thought that the early game should revolve around commander play, while transitioning into late game creates a competition of hide and seek.

    Granted, this is replacing one problem with another. However, this is a more enjoyable problem since its a bigger risk. A commander at 100% on the front lines is more vunerable than a commander at 5% in their base.
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  7. psdpro

    psdpro Member

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    Isn't this because if reclaim and repair used two different systems of measurement, you would open up a loophole where you could reclaim and repair a unit simultaneously, and get free metal in the process.
  8. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    No, you can not get free metal.

    If you reclaim and repair a unit simultaneously, the metal input and output cancels each other.
    But the hp of the unit is decreased.
    The reclaimed metal from the unis which is still alive is only 50% of the one of repairing.
    So it is an expensive lend.

    The metal of commander is 25000, and the HP of commander is 12500.
    If you reclaim the commander to death, you can get 12500 metal, the remaining half is in the wreckage.
    But when you try to fix your commander from 1 HP to 12500 full HP.
    You still need to pay 25000 metal rather than 12500.

    There is no such free metal loop.
    The real problem is that the price to repair the commander is very expensive, so players use it reversely.
    Reclaiming the commander gives the players a lot of metal in early game.
    They can simply do everything as previous while rush to T2 at the same time.

    For example, you can use 20% HP of your commander for 2500 metal which can greatly help the player to get a T2 factory.
    If you win the game in early stage, you don't even need to repair your commander back.
  9. river39

    river39 Active Member

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    so marshal made this new video with a game where com reclaim gets a good match against non commander reclaim.
    now the question is if the fix is needed or that we need to look for counters.
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  10. MrTBSC

    MrTBSC Post Master General

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    i would argue titan din´t make good use of the reclaim no early expansion or harrasment imo ..
    i´m still favoring a fix .. because counters or not you still would have to answer that reclaimstrat and for spectating there still would be just as few openingstrats imo
  11. walmartdialup

    walmartdialup Active Member

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    Nice video that raises alot of questions. In this case, I think it was really good strategy at play on blue's part and a lack of execution on green's side. I may not be giving enough credit to blue though since his timing was perfect within the match.

    If i understand this correctly, the com reclaim strategy takes advantage of the time frame between each side building T2. The idea is to lengthen this timeframe and green didn't take advantage of this entirely. A player more familiar with this strategy may have taken advantage of this aspect.

    Since I dont com reclaim, why do people always go T2 vehicle rather than T2 bot ? While levellers are the strongest, I feel like the quantity and speed that slammers deliver is good enough to get the job done. Its ROF would easily take out bot swarms and its durability could be subsidized with what your leftover t1 army
  12. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    If there is a viable counter without reclaim that works repeatedly in matches of equally skilled opponents fantastic. The above looks to me to be a weaker player using com reclaim, vs a stronger player who is not, resulting in an even match up...
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  13. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    There are probably viable counters to comm reclaim, only (almost) nobody has been searching for them.
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  14. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I believe there is no such counter to commander reclaim.
    When I see that the enemy player is reclaiming his commander, I can do nothing but reclaim my commander.

    Think about the weak point of commander reclaim, it is almost nothing but reducing few HP of the commander.
    At the same time, the player who reclaims his commander gets more units, buildings, and T2.

    In fact, the weak point of commander reclaim is only the commander sniping.
    However, this weak point is not a big deal in comparison with the advantage of eco burst.
  15. Alpha2546

    Alpha2546 Post Master General

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    The only ideas that I can come up with is early bomber snipe or boom bots. With the booms you can still choose if you can go for the commander or for the T2 factory that is still being built. To increase succes you can reclaim a bit of your commander so that you don't need to spend built time building a couple of fabbers. You'd need an air factory to for scouting and bombers and a couple of bot factory's for the booms.

    The only other things that pops into mind is inferno dropping this all is pretty risky though.
    cdrkf likes this.
  16. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    The problem is that in the current balance, attacking with t1 is pointless against the main base. All you do is feed your opponent wreckage.

    Boom bots are dangerous to a com on front lines, but in the middle of the base with unit production? I mean a few dox and your booms are useless.

    Bombers? Well again even at 50% health you'll need 10+ to snipe the com, assuming no anti air of fighters or dox groups are around to supplement his aa- air drop suffers same issue.

    When a player isn't com reclaiming you have more expansion, resulting in weak points you can effectively raid with t1. That isn't necessary though now. I've noted after playing many games against @clopse whilst I was still playing 1v1 at a reasonable level that the Titans balance allowed players to ignore territory control and build up large tank forces in their base to win on many maps. Com reclaim compounds this issue imo.

    I think buildings are rather strong vis a vis damage output of units. In ta, and ba, if 4 or 5 t1 units got into an undefended base they'd level it. Now the ttk is so high only large forces pose that kind of threat- groups that come into the game around the same time as t2 with com reclaim, that due to its power counter the groups of t1 whilst simultaneously giving the t2 player the eco advantage.

    Boom sniping the t2 might be the best counter I've heard, the size of t2 means it's likely to be on the outskirts of the base, but also very risky if it fails.
    Last edited: June 26, 2016
  17. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    One thing I am considering doing in the mean time is designing 1v1 maps with very limited metal in the starting base to counter-act the comm-reclaim bonus.

    Have a gander at Finn's Revenge in my map pack for example.
  18. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    The commander reclaim is even more powerful in the map with very limited metal
    since it is impossible to take more metal from expanding.
    Since every metal is important, it is best to camp in base and achieve T2 eco as fast as possible.

    The real map which counters the commander reclaim is the map with a lot of trees or with a lot of metal clusters.
    For the map with many trees, the players can reclaim the trees rather than the commander.
    For the map with many metal cluster, player can build more metal extractors which are better for the long term.
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  19. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    I would argue heavily limiting metal in the spawn would mean that expansion is necessitated in order to gain any meaningful advantage. I am assuming that both players will be using reclaim.

    Having lots of metal means that players wouldn't need to expand as far, or play as aggressively for them.
    cdrkf likes this.
  20. Corgiarmy

    Corgiarmy Active Member

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    The nature of com reclaim is hard to counter. Treeco is one semi successful way for map makers. Comboxing is another :p. Build three bot factories and push your com with boombots to the enemy base. :p

    However, any build can be countered effectively with com reclaim. Lobs and air seem to be in the new meta. So sniping with boombots and bombers has become very difficult. Plus those lobs just produce so many doxs so fast it is really impossible to counter in the early game (2-5 min mark).

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