Change these things: And I will cry tears of joy

it wouldnt kill assassins if they dont uncloak near it.

it wouldnt do much for the team, if it wasnt in a spot that challenged bots.

if it is in a spot that challenges bots/pro lanes, than other pros would attack it

alot of other pros have no problem killing it.


Honestly I think you just like being invincible while you face grapple a support.

Face grapple? What makes you assume I go for face grapples?

As for watching your back, use the shotgun. It's what its there for.

lol, i'm not gonna derail this thread arguing with you. Nice troll.

:lol: , but really. If you can't kill an Assassin with your shotgun, you deserve to die, firebase or no firebase. I could care less about the other turrets dealing extra damage.

So we're picking favorites now.

I never proposed it would increase dmg done to grapplers from pros, only turrets and firebases (inanimate objects, that you can count on being in one place)

I said no to pros, because you can do an excellent grapple and be killed by a random pro, or sniper, unfair. But if you grapple someone near a firebase you deserve to die, use other methods of attack, or ignore them and let class's that have better ways of dealing with them take them out.

Same for turrets. take out the turrets first.

Assassins and assaults are the main problem here, as they can charge / dash in and grapple someone who is doing the using a firebase as protection, and have no downside. As the dmg it deals while grappling is pathetic. The assassin by nature has the better of it over assault, as he always has a reliable way of getting away before the turret can kill him. But most times an assault can just LOS it within seconds..

Same for turrets.

I propose this change, because right now the reward for playing defensively as a support is no where near what it is for offensively shotgun jumping and airstrike spamming. And I would like to see a medic/support/ triage-point type support become more viable.

Firebases are immobile, this only effects people who do something stupid (grapple a support next to it)

A good assassin shouldn't be going for Pro-Kills.

A good Assassin is going to kill Pros while pushing bots.

A great Assassin does both.

Yeah, except for the Assassin being frail and the Assault not being able to cloak.

Sorry - your justification for this is inherently flawed, or to put it into simpler terms, stop being bad.

If i see a firebase i usually remove it first, but if the support is being a nuisance i will remove him first, smoke bomb the firebase, then remove it.

If i get away with this, it's because i was able to kill the support without him seeing me first. If he jumps or whatever and i can't grapple him, then i NEED TO LEAVE, FAST... lest the firebase carve me into ribbons.

If you don't see the assassin until you're already being grappled, you deserve to die. Learn to play.

ProTip: you can grapple assassins before they can if they lunge at you. Give it a try sometime, then you don't have to suggest the class be gimped to make up for your shortcomings. Not the right weapon to grapple with? jump. As i said - they'll be forced to flee or juice.

And this mentality needs to stop. Learn how the class actually works instead of expecting them to be some kind of fifth skill your class has that cleans up bots.

I kill players between groups of bots. I kill bots between me and players that need to die. I kill bots because they are bots. But that sword has just as much blood on it as oil.

Lots of unnecessary changes in here.

The only remaining legitimate balance issues are:

1. Lunge is too good. As a side effect lunge-face grapples are too strong.
2. Armor endorsements are too good.

There are a few arguable ones as well but these are relatively few:

1. Assault with bronze skill recharge.
2. Juice gain rate differences between classes.
3. Pathetic nature of Laser Blazers.

And in my own opinion the following are suggested small game play changes:

1. Support firebase and Rock-It turret hit boxes are too small for projectile weapons. Laser Blazer, Long Shot and Shave Ice are too big.
2. Cloak needs a reduced sound range akin to the TF2 Dead Ringer change.
3. Assassin back grapple with sword should do 50,000 damage.
4. Default class load outs are not very good, especially for new players.
5. Tutorial does not effectively prepare players to actually follow an objective.

Quite a few problems in the game are difficult to determine as the allowable skill differential with such small teams can easily mask a lot of issues, however the above represent what I perceive as the likeliest spots for things that are too good or too weak.

I could concede and or agree with many of the suggestions except this. Sorry no. Not unless you make assassin also take 100% normal damage during grapples.

Here we go, this'll satisfy people:

-Assassins can no longer lunge. Or grapple. Assassins now die when looked at by another player.

Seriously. People won't be happy until this is how it actually is.

If you're going to nerf the lunge, make backstabs a guaranteed kill on everyone.

The problem with lunge isn't backstabs. Also she has plenty of mobility tools other than lunge (dash, cloak, and smoke bomb)

All making back grapples 100% kill would do is make tanks and supports feel under powered.

The problem with lunge is that she is able to play TOO aggressively because she can spam lunge to get out of any situation she finds herself in trouble. She becomes uncatchable. Its pretty tough to grapple her during a juice because of lunge (not impossible since she does have to stop at a turret for 2 seconds to kill it, but tough.)

She is able to negate daze effects entirely thanks to lunge spam.

If you simply made lunge have a longer CD you'd see less lunge-facestab assassins because it'd become MUCH less effective since they'd no longer be able to lunge away right after the grapple.

If you play tank or assault you have to choose "do I use my charge during the fight, or save it incase I need to retreat" only time you can sort of spam charge is with gold skill regen on a level 3 assault charge. And even then its cooldown is more than 3x longer than lunges.

Lunge shouldn't be balanced in such a way that it is as useful as other classes charges.

The way I see it, lunge is a free level 3 skill. It gets you into a fight, instagibs a whole bot wave, deals significant damage, and gets you out of a fight, faster and more efficiently than assault and tank charges. It definitely should not be MORE effective than the skill charges which have longer cooldowns and cost money to upgrade. If it had roughly a bronze skill regen level 2 assault charge cooldown, I would be okay with that. The problem is that assassins are getting a free skill which is at the very least equal to a $550 level 3 charge skill in everything except player damage, which is unimportant due to grapple.

Yeah, and if you're going to nerf her ability to get to or away from anything, you best make up for it with something to warrant attacking anyone ever. Like say, a guaranteed kill from behind. And no, i don't want to hear how assassins aren't supposed to kill pros. If the problem is spamming lunge with no skill tactics or forethought, then the design choices made should encourage that, not discourage it.

Lunge having a shorter cooldown than the assaults charge and fly is a problem? Big deal. You're comparing her to a class that has some serious staying power. And can chase down and kill the assassin. Or set her on fire. Or both.

Spamming lunge is the only way an assassin can get away from the other classes at all, with the possible exception of the tank and a gunner who opts to try a slam. Anyone else can grapple her before smoke bomb finishes, meaning your only option is to jump and lunge into a dash to flee. And even then survival is certainly not guaranteed.

She does not negate daze entirely with the lunge. Unless you think the 2 seconds between lunges where she can barely move counts as negating it. An assassin who in this case would likely be out in the open, since they can't be dazed by just seeing some sunlight. An assassin who is likely partially visible due to the damage or the lunge breaking cloak. Not buying it.

I doubt uber will attach the lunge to the dash skill as this thread suggests.

I agree here. Reducing spammability of lunge should mean backstabs are a guaranteed kill, however I feel like a fully overhealed pro with silver/gold armor should survive it with small health left.

Right, because an assault with a charge on a roughly 15 second cooldown (because good players generally don't get charge 3) is capable of catching a faster class with a 2 second cooldown charge. Impeccable logic.

I think the argument is over the ability to use it to get in to a fight, grapple, do damage again to finish the fight, and then use it a third time to get away, all in less time than a single skill charge cooldown, which costs money and takes up an ability slot. Also, you can simply lunge + smokebomb, and nobody will catch you.

Agree here. However smoke bomb mostly negates daze because it's basically impossible to do damage to an assassin while they are flying up and down at that speed, and by the time they land they have lunge off cooldown again and will not be dazed at the end of that.

Got a better suggestion?

A good assassin vs a good assault. The assault wont ever CATCH the assassin. Ring her out with a surprise bomb or charge sure. But chase her down and catch her? never.

Lunge is longer range, faster speed, and shorter cooldown than level 2 or 3 charge.

Also increasing the CD on lunge doesn't lower her burst damage any, it only lowers her sustained DPS which is not supposed to be her strong side anyway. That is why she has so many mobility tools and escape tools int he first place.

Lunge - face grapple would still do the exact same amount of damage (enough to 1hit kill 2/3rds of the classes if they have no armor) but it would be a commitment to either fight that battle, or you have to use your many other skills to attempt to escape.

Backstab buff would completely overpower the class. Juice would become useless, overheals would be useless, noone would bother playing tank since assassin could roflstomp them and clear bot waves just as quickly and be safer from snipers.

Nerfing lunge might make you play a little different, buffing backstab would upset the entire games balance majorly.

This is where the only notable problem lies, in my opinion.

Dash is not an escape skill until you lunge. Lunge to cover rapid ground and dash to accelerate away afterwards.

Cloak is not an escape skill either. You don't use cloak to escape when you're under fire - you can still be seen when you've recently taken damage. It only becomes useful once you break line of sight with enough distance to dissapear properly.

Smoke bomb is only practical on slam happy gunners and tanks with an almost or actually empty jet gun. On anyone else it is asking - no - BEGGING to be grappled. And that -will- ruin your day as an assassin. Though admittedly almost every assault will charge me if i don't kill them, so they can be evaded by simply.. uhh.. jumping. Ironic, when you think about it.

None of the classes are really forced to "commit" themselves to a fight with similar staying power to the assassin, so i still don't see why should she be any different. If she escapes and your health recharges, it was a net gain of nothing for her. You don't get your $25 and she's welcome to try again - but if you know she's on the prowl nearby it'll be harder to jump you.

My backstab buff was a counter-point to nerfing the lunge based on everyones thought process that facestabs should basically just blow the assassin up. If that's not the issue for you, then great. I think we can get along. And i retract my buff suggestion. In all honesty i can't think of many times where a backstab with the sword hasn't killed my target sans overheals, juice and armor tanks anyway.

I don't know why everyone is having so many problems with lunging assassins. You can kill Gold armor assassins before an assassin can even finish the first lunge. If you're dumb enough not to shoot at the assassin as she's trying to get away, than you deserve to miss the kill.

I personally never had any problems with a lunging assassins. If I get lunge back grappled than the assassin earned it and I would have died with or without the lunge. If the assassin lunges infront of me than I just jump. Any class can out damage her if you have the aiming ability of a monkey at point blank. In fact, without that escape tactic, Assassins would pretty much just be a class purely for feeding the other team money kills.

Everyone seems so intent on nerfing the assassin just because of a few good players. What if I started bitching about the tanks ability to spounge a lot of damage or survive back grapples? Or the Supports superior close quarters game? Or how about the Gunners ability to shred pros at the drop of a hat? This discussion about the assassins lunge being over powered is a running joke to me. It's not really justified as a skill as it does not do that great of damage anyways. It does less damage than the assaults level 1 charge.

This entire post is a farce and pretty much an indirect way of attacking the Assassin class. The only thing I truly agreed with in the first post was that Supports should indeed get an assist for healing a team mate. But you can also counter that argument with just right clicking and dealing one cycle of damage to an enemy, than just going back to healing your team mate. Everything else is just complaining about not being able to adapt to different play styles.

To be honest, the Assault class is designed for dealing with pros. Hence his weakness in bot and base destruction. A battle with an Assault should never last as long as his skills need to recharge. But he does need that quick recharge to keep on dealing with pros that come to help. He is the highly mobile anti-pro.