Can a Commander build itself?

Curious: has anyone dove into the concept of "how does one store a schematic that is so detailed that the exact location and configuration of each atom has to be saved in a device that is smaller than the thing it is storing"?

That's be like storing the contents of a big harddrive on a smaller harddrive. If you assume that the Commander is so incredibly complex that the location of every atom matters then it becomes impossible for a Commander to carry that schematic.

In essence though, the Commander is the schematic, but he'd have to be perfect and not damaged in any way. He wouldn't even be able to properly repair himself because he's the only schematic available.

There's this new fangled thing called compression.

Compression, redundancy, external backup, internet etc...

Assuming that it can be compressed, yes. I wonder how much compression is possible on a human-like sentience. Or on other technlogy that is so super-advanced that they build Commanders out of it.

But true. I guess I was too hungry to to remember compression. That's what you get for suspending lunch to post on forums.

Really, you do expect something gameplay related in thread with such topic? It's discussion for sake of discussion from very beginning.

Bobucles' religion is all about it. Solution is - you don't need to store exact location and configuration of each atom for storage device. You need to store template schematic, construct empty memory device and then copy memory from original. Schematic don't need to account real-time changes that occured after unit was built (including any memory changes). It's template. Consider human DNA as example.

So you don't need to store sentience (more than in one "running" copy). In worst case you need to copy it. In best case you need to copy memory and initiate new sentience in newly built ACU.

Your suggestion sounds like it would be a far from perfect machine that you're producing. Copying an existing sentience, templating atom sequences instead of specific locations for each, relying on DNA as an analogy. (which is pretty much designed so change a bit every so often)

You could probably build a better Commander by not cutting all those corners.

The commanders aren't sentient, they are an expert system.

As in they are von neumann probes, not living things.

I'd say life as we know it is a pretty solid example of how stuff could be built. We seem to do a pretty good job at reproducing shapes & sentience. These machines have probably had thousands of years to copy our systems and improve upon them.

On storage of information of how to build a commander, the commander has many similar parts, such as data storage units, power storage units, hydraulic pistons (or whatever they use), etc. This means they do not need to store every atom in a commander, only templates for components and their location. The outer armor, for example would likely consist of a layering of different materials, this layering could be stored and then applied all over the commander.

It seems that we are getting lost in the technical details. Having consistent tech and respecting simple logic is important, but this is going way too far.
So, given what we saw and heard about PA lore, could Commanders build other Commanders? Yes. Could there be something preventing Commanders to build other Commanders? Yes.

The important point is, do we want Commanders to be able to build other Commanders? What would be more logical? What would be more coherent?

Obviously, Commanders can't build other Commanders on the field. After all, the Commander is meant to be unique. (Or we are talking about alternate game modes.)
But could a Commander build more things than what is doable on the battlefield? Yes, obviously. If it takes three days of work, for example, then it will never be built on the field. They will wait after controlling the entire system before beginning. Similarly, it could require a sizeable portion of the System's matter/resources to do so.

So, what happens if they can't build each-other? Then the "endless war" will end pretty fast. There is no way that such a war can last for millennia if at each battle, Commanders get killed. Even if they fight only every couple of years.
So we can't have that.
There has to be a way to bring new Commanders into the war. Or the thousands-years-long war will last about as long as the Third Reich.

Then, there are only a few choices left : either there are a limited number of non-replaceable Commander builders (like, say, the Progenitor Commanders). Then it will mitigate the above problem. The war won't be eternal, but it will last as long as a few builders manage to survive. Which could take millennia.
A variant is having immense stockpiles of deactivated Commanders, that are activated (randomly or deliberately) during the war. This will have the same effect of making the war last for a while longer.

Or we can have any Commander being able to build other, fully sentient Commanders. There, we can have a real (potentially) endless war. This is the one that opens the most interesting scenario in my opinion, based on the "each Commander is its own faction" possibility.
Commanders will only build other Commanders as circumstantial allies : they will fight together against the greater foe, but then they will have to fight each-other, splitting into several factions. If one manages to dominate, then the others will build new Commanders again.

Then, you have the possibility of a truly endless war : even if a faction manages to win, it will split and fight each-other. Even if a single Commander is winning, the others will build more and more Commanders, forcing it to do the same to be competitive. So whatever happens, there are always enough Commanders to continue and perpetuate the war.
They are wasting entire galaxies in their war, but the Universe is so vast that they won't run out of galaxies even long after the stars went extinct.
So their ultimate motivation of being the last one standing is, in the end, hopeless. But what would a Commander do anyway, if it ever won? If they are sentient (and I truly hope they are, because playing expert systems is kind of lame), then they probably don't even care. The fun is in trying, not in succeeding (or they would go depressed and get killed/flee from the war anyway)

Now their culture would be plain awesome.
They know they are the last sentient lifeform in the Universe, and that they are locked in a hopeless, eternal war, destroying everything in their path. Their entire life is dedicated to the impossible goal of being the last one standing.
And they wouldn't even dream to change that, it's just too much fun.

They aren't sentient, at all.

What makes you think otherwise?

It's more interesting if they are.

What makes you think they aren't?

Why would a sentient subject itself to this kind of situation?

And considering that they are automated probes, they would follow this direction until told otherwise (And considering civilization has been wiped out, that ain't going to happen), but something that is sentient would give up, see that this is pointless and would had away in a corner of the galaxy to prevent their own death.

Sentient lifeforms, mechanical or organic, are too smart to bother with a war like this when it can be avoided, by leaving.

Human DNA, which is essentially the human schematic, only contains about 1.5 gigabytes of information.

The human brain, probably the most astoundingly complex thing known to mankind, is created from just a fraction of that information.

The point is that often a creation is far more complex than the information required to create it.

Templating atom sequences is vital thing for memory storage device. You store exact positions for one memory cell's atoms and then duplicate it over and over in rows and columns. By "template" I mean "no data stored accounted". So you are getting empty data storage (or, to be more precise, data storage with garbage). You format it, you copy data over it.

Schematics don't account for real-time changes, so they are all "templates". I.e. they will consist a lot of similar elements, like servos, data storage devices, wire hubs and soon. Even on bigger scale - your ACU legs are probably the same left and right.

Removing redundancy in your schematics by replacing duplicate elements with references to single subschematic is not "lossy" way of compression - it is simplest and obvious "lossless" compression.

And that level of compression is more than enough to store full complete schematic of perfect ACU on ACU's storage device. More than once. And with checksum. So no need to clone the machine in straightforward way.

DNA is yes, some kind of lossy compression, but it doesn't change itself during your life. It changing only due to reproduction mechanic (and that's "intended"). If you cut snake a tail it will grow another tail. It would be another tail, yes, but who cares as long as it supplying same function with same quality.

TLDR: you don't need to store exact atom locations for every atom to create something perfect. Problem solved.

Cause "sentient" thing will not support something so dumb as endless hopeless war. As any sentient thing should have some kind of self-preservation instinct.

But I do agree that thinking of them as sentient is more fun. We may assume that ACU can't build another ACU, but there are some kind of forbidden-to-destroy automated factories that are able to produce ACUs. And there are only so much known variants of mind configuration that result in sentient being. Every factory builds ACUs of some type (Progenitor/Alpha/Theta...) and have complete storage of all last-known memory/sentience for every possible sentient mind configuration. When ACU is destroyed it is reproduced with last known configuration. If ACU survived long enough to collect resources, it may return it its factory and store new configuration in exchange for resources. (It's quite traditional respawn explanation for MMOs).

In such way, single ACU just don't care about dying. His only goal is to collect more resources to progress himself. And battling with other ACUs is a way to gaining that progress. Some kind of military-addictive civilization. One may even imaging possible campaign plots around that idea.

Really? So any sentient being has to have human-like sentience? No, wait, early XXIe century occidental-like sentience?
That's... kind of narrow.
And even then, I'm pretty sure I know at least a guy who would have great fun in this situation, hopeless or not.

Note that you also have countless fictional examples of such sentient beings like, say, orks...

Not human like sentience, but any kind of sentience.

But inevitably no sentient would be able to withstand such a situation for long, nor would we expect the to put up with it.

Logically a machine would be far better at the job.

Further more, we can conclude that they are not sentient because they are von neumann probes. And cannot be sentient because other wise they wouldn't be able to effectively perform the function.

what.

Again, GW Orks...

If Tokien:
Orcs...
Uruks...

I'm sure there are more than that...

Orks are not an argument that the commanders could be sentient, as orks are barely sentient themselves.....is anything I would like to ask you to provide proof that orks and orcs are actually sentient and are not simply organic war machines?