BUMBLEBEE RUSH TOO POWERFUL(=ﾟωﾟ)ﾉ

combat fabbers are valuable at T1 :\ but that's about all.

The problem with redundancy is that one unit/tech will always be better than the other. It's the reason the balance has never really favored an "equal start" between bots and vehicles. There are legit reasons to go Air first, legit reasons to go vehicle first, and with some adjustments I could see naval being valid at times...

but bots and vehicles are too similar. So long as they both do the same basic job one will always be better and one will always be obsolete. "Raiding" does not justify bots if they cannot resist tanks in direct combat.

This is why "redundancy" is not just an excuse. Its a real problem because it means half the units and half the factories aren't worth building.

The long term fix is to differentiate them as far as possible, and removing overlapping roles is part of that. If the T1 vehicle factory lacked any meaningful way to stand against bots in the early game then we would have Bots>Air>Tanks>Bots and everyone has value. Your start is a gamble, but you have a reason and the resources to build every factory type.

I doubt it, narrowing the number of possible openings on purpose would be terrible.

That depends. With every build so far either Vehicle or Bot has been grossly outclassed by the other. Picking a factory that is doomed to failure is hardly a good thing to include on the "possible openings" list.

There are ways to make bots more distinct from vehicles, and make both viable, but it takes a degree of differentiation that I haven't seen from Uber. The Realm's balance mod moves better in that direction, but I would take it even further.

For possible openings read viable openings.

And there was a patch for a while where bot and vehicle openings were used equally. It was back when vehicles were better for fabbers and scouting, but bots got you your combat units. You saw top level openings with both. And if it was clopse you saw air first.

Funny, in the last tourney, the two games I went air first I won, but the two after that I went vehicle first i lost horribly.

I blame lag, but there is some coincidence.....

FIX! spam T1 factory loop build 1 AA 1 Venguard 4 light tank per factory always worked for me

I'm unsure why this is a reply to me. I didn't say air first wasn't viable, but bots aren't, and you didn't use bots. Unless you're saying your vehicle first starts lost to bots.

I think you make a good point there. The bots now are meant to be good units for raiding but they lack the AA and the power against the tanks (and against buildings). And they lack the combat fabber, which made bot first a real option (to pump out more tanks and eco). Now without AA and without combat fabbers, bots are too weak. So what do you think of AA bot but no AA vehicle? Maybe vehicle first wouldn't be viable after this change but I think you would need it for the T1 spam, so you would build it 2nd or 3rd. And you would have to mix bots into your amry for AA.

Right now tanks completely dominate bots, so removing the AA tank would make tanks weak to air, and bringing back the AA bot is a cheap and effective way to make bots a very cost effective trump to air. Then all 3 main starts would have a strength and a weakness.

It is possible to have units that can fulfill the "ground attack" role in different ways, without either being outclassed. Take Zerglings and Marines in Starcraft. Both are the basic attack unit for their respective races, and they are substantially different, yet can still hold their own against each other in the early game. While Zerglings focus on speed and positioning to surround and overwhelm Marine groups, the Marines try to stay clumped together and pick off stray Zerglings to take advantage of their range. The different strengths of each unit type make engagements between the two more interesting.

The problem with bots vs. tanks right now isn't that they're both doing the "ground attack" role, it's that the way in which they do ground attacks is basically the same, and tanks are better at it. Both units close to medium range, then shoot at a target until they or the target is dead. DPS is similar, and tanks have slightly more range and significantly more HP.

What this dynamic needs is for bots to beat tanks in some area besides speed, while letting tanks retain advantages in other areas. For instance, you could boost Dox DPS while slightly reducing their range - then, a fight with tanks would involve looking for opportunities to rush in, while trying to stay out of inferno range. More interesting than the current dynamic.

if you have even half as many aa vech, or fighters this isn't really a problem. The fact that bots don't have any aa is a little bit of a problem. But protecting your commander isn't to difficult from this scenario. I scout my enemy to determine what kinds of units they will be pumping out, etc. If you see they start air factory you can assume they will build air units and should do something to defend against it.

One such way is to build an air factory dedicated to creating fighters and have the factory automatically deploy those fighters into a patrol pattern around your base. Another ways is to have the factory send the figthers to assist / guard your commander.

Another way is to have one vech. factory dedicated to pumping out aa vech and do the same thing as above. either way will prevent the bomber snipe.

The problem is you're effectively opening blind and hoping you guessed right.

Or encouraging you to play conservatively until you know your enemy is weak against your first pick. It might even encourage some players to wait until they have 2 factories and mixed armies instead of rushing the first unit they can build.

If I go air first and you go vehicle first (in a world where only bots have AA) then GG you. There was nothing you could do to anticipate what I'd do, you guessed and you lost based on that guess. If you go bots first and I go vehicles first, again, GG, because you're producing stingers but I'm raiding with tanks.

Only if you bum rush in the first 30 seconds.... or you could, you know, build a second factory 15 seconds after the first....

Grenadiers are good support for a tank force, cheap and quick to build.

Nice around rough terrain.

I was replying to all of you

MY EGO SAYS OTHERWISE!

Just playing around with ****. It is prerelease, there is no obligation for the game to be available to you completely functional, or for them to lock in gameplay and not completely flip stuff around.

Really, I wish tanks were t2 AA if anything. AA is a viable "infantry" role, a support role that would put them in files with tanks for that variety.

Mods like Statera really exemplify this.

No.