Brexit

Discussion in 'Unrelated Discussion' started by proeleert, May 9, 2016.

  1. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    Are you sure this is the angle you wanna go with? ...given your own current situation. And please...
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  2. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    I think there is no need to start throwing insults at each other, you're not really discussing anything anymore at this point.
  3. patema

    patema Active Member

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    The awakening has started. Trump2016!
  4. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    Don't know about you, but i'm closer to going to bed than awakening.
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  5. walmartdialup

    walmartdialup Active Member

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    Having more time to read the discussions on this forum and the news, I can't help but notice the cynical undertone that people have for the future.

    I understand the need to bring up nationalism and the Hitler stuff, but will this really snowball to this point? Maybe I'm incredibly naive, but I don't think brexit should be taken into this context. If anything, wait until the upcoming elections come along before concluding that the country is going down a slippery slope.

    As for questioning the integrity of a system, I can't help but notice the relationship between the idea described within critical race theory and the current political climate. I'm not a scholar on the critical theory, but the theory describes how discrimination and racism is engrained within society and law. This type of introspection seems to be going on within government also.

    Granted, the main criticism behind CRT is that it sometimes lacks logic in the way that it has before. After all, we have all seen when logic's rigid nature is used as a tool to take advantage of others. Likewise, eliminating all logic isn't its goal either. If anything, I feel that its going through a fuzzification. (For the better educated, this last example I think really summarizes my point)

    All this is incredibly grey. I do believe however its supposed to be this way, since most things in life aren't black and white. This could explain why committing what appears to be the most foolish decisions are in fact somewhat justified and become beneficial in the future. Hence Trump, Sanders and Brexit.

    If anybody is better educated on this subject, feel free to add and/or correct this discussion.


    TLDR: stupidity doesn't necessarily imply that their ignorant. Its more complicated than that. Government needs to question itself sometimes and respond accordingly. Logic isn't fool proof.
  6. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    Remain had little more to campaign for that trying to spread fear, and had Cameron (himself Eurosceptic) backing it.
    Leave has lied several times about key topic.
    Britain itself has always been Eurosceptic, filled by lies from it's newspapers.

    If one side lies and the other side can't think of anything nice to say about the EU, are the right people even running the campaign?

    If places that have the biggest EU contribution (and in fact, are net receivers) like Wales vote Out, isn't that a signal that something went terribly wrong?

    If Google detects a significant rise in topics like "what is the EU" after the Referendum hasn't there been a significant failure to educate people? And this isn't exclusive to Google: i've seen plenty of comments wondering why they weren't told a ton of stuff before (like single market + total control over immigration being a pipe dream).

    If you have a nation so divided by age and by income and by education, isn't there something very wrong with your nation?

    If you decide the fate of tens of millions of people with a 2% difference in opinion, then 52% is holding 48% hostage and vice versa. Considering it was a simple yes/no vote there wasn't even room for nuance. Like, oh i don't know, Leave parties suggesting "all they wanted was a little control over immigration".

    Looking at this, i can't help but being cynic. Especially considering most problems are simply Britain's fault.


    Well so far, Remain's predictions have come true and Leave has yet to achieve anything (Including actually leaving). I know the time is early, but the score's not in their favor so far. Couple that with a political crisis in the form of no PM, Johnson not running for party leader or PM and a coup in the opposition, it's not looking rosey.

    Racism has been generally accepted for a very, very, very long time. You don't change people's views that easily. A century ago, neither black people nor women could vote and could (and were) legally discriminated against.

    It's simply the case that people are angry and do not feel heard, even though the power is with the people. Some voters were apparently surprised their vote counted at all. It's definitely a wake-up call to people that politics and voting do matter.

    It mostly depends on what Leave exactly wants, and how fast they move with negotiations. None of them seem to be in a hurry, which will only continue the uncertainty and unrest in the market (which, contrary to what people believe, does impact daily life. E.g. the UK is a net importer of goods, import will increase in price).
    Last edited: June 30, 2016
  7. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    probably because you haven't lived through it nor has anyone in your family.

    I make an effort upon myself to try to visualize something I never went through. something my grandparents did and told me lots about. I try to counter this incessant quasi-instinctive nature that we have of downplaying things we haven't personally gone through as much as I can and in particular with the world wars.

    There is no overstating how real this issue is. Dozens of live-scale social experiments have been run one of which was made into a movie, which I invite you to watch : the wave. (incidentally it's an incredibly good watch so two birds one stone) also the social experiment that inspired this movie was run in america not in germany, food for though.

    It's extremely telling that everyone would initially react which incredulity at the proposal that it could happen again : as they did in the social experiments. this is exactly the downplaying nature I'm referring to
    Last edited: June 30, 2016
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  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    On the point about nationalism.

    An MP representing the Remain campaign (well, one of the MPs representing it) was fatally shot and stabbed by someone who was a part of a far-right nationalist group (Britain First).

    The analogy is valid because it's already happening.
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  9. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    I think we'll all agree that Hitler hated Jews and Internet forums for he did a lot of damage to both. Forgive me if I hurt someone's feelings but stop that please! A nationalist kills someone and it's the beginning of a nationalist war, a muslin kills a few people and it was just a mad man, nothing to do with religion.
    It was about leaving a multinational organisation, racists and nationalists voted mostly leave but you have no idea about their number.
    Have you seen the reaction in the EU parliament? They aren't talking about acting in favour of the people they say they represent, the want vengeance against UK. And press in other European countries are basically saying that British people are evil.
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  10. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    The UK does not want to be represented and is leaving, so now the EU people will represent the EU-countries vs the UK. Ofc that means not giving away free stuff anymore.

    I wish everyone would think like that.
  11. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    @cola_colin I meant that EU parliament has to do things to benefict EU countries and not with the intention of harming UK.

    What's that free stuff that EU gives away? Politicians don't give their things, the take from someone to give another one.
  12. ljfed

    ljfed Active Member

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    Right, its understandable that they won't act in the interest of the UK , but from what i've heard they are purposely acting to try to f*** them over.

    Also one thing I haven't been able to understand is why people are calling Brexit racists. If anything isn't it the EU that is racist by limiting the amount of non European immigration into the UK?
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  13. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    This is bullshit. More EU hate and lies.

    So far, the reactions have been:

    Fouding nations: We would like Britain to not wait to long, preferably end of the year. The earlier negotiations start the earlier stability will return to the market and it's in everyone's benefits.
    Merkel, considered the De Facto EU leader: i'm patient, we should not hurry
    EU financial ministers: We're starting negotiations fresh.
    One French minister: The already-negotiated pack shouldn't be wiped off the table
    One other French minister: We want Paris to be new center of banking and will try to attract banks from london

    So go away with your lies.
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  14. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Of course it has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with the egomaniac who wrote the koran who started multiple conflicts to spread said religion through force. Don't even start with this bullshit. Islam is a flawed philosophy on so many levels, not the first of which is their treatment of women and people who don't agree with them.

    When traditional denominational Christians don't agree with someone, they might yell or protest or discuss it in interviews or discuss it in church. When Traditional, Eastern Muslims don't agree with someone, they stone them to death.

    See the difference?
    I hope so.

    WalmartD has a point, tho - immediately jumping on the HOLY **** THE WORLD IS ENDING train after an election is incredibly naive. The UK, despite whatever the **** the Remain people say, was giving a **** ton of money to the EU for essentially no immediate benefit. They had indirect benefits like trade and other things, but as one of the wealthiest EU nations, they were essentially feeding the leech. Welcome to socialism.

    Jesus, man. He's obviously quoting what he's heard over the past month, not beating you over the head with a UK Brexit Bible. Give him a break. Quote the facts, not the emotional bullshit.

    And tunsel, really? Historical precedent tells us that every single *joining* of nations in a large, multicultural economic alliance has ended in either the Soviet Union (communists who murdered millions), the Roman Empire (a questionably moral republic/despotic empire that ensalved thousands), or WWII Japan (basically just power hungry ego-ists with a race complex). By that alone I could say the EU will eventually turn into an evil conglomerate bent on enforcing the will of the superior race on the rest of the world.

    But I won't because that's incredibly stupid. The EU can't manage it's own bank account, much less attempt world domination.

    A wealthy, independent country breaking away from a major political axis has never spelled anything but bad for the group. The country is usually self-sufficient or has found a way to fill their needs that doesn't involve their former best friends. Historically it signifies the start of the EU's decline. Personally, that's what I expect. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the other nations decide they would be better off without the EU.
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  15. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    Mered, the only reason your orthodox Christians don't act similarly to orthodox Muslims is because they don't control the government. 800 years ago they did, and while they weren't quite as barbaric as ISIS is today, they were anything but civilized.
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  16. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    1st: Orthodox Christians are a specific denomination. I think you just misused some words here :)
    2nd: The Bible doesn't call for Christians to control the government and restrict civil liberties.
    3rd: Most people back then were illiterate, so most people who could read the Bible twisted it for their own ways. Men lusting for power isn't new.
    4th: They were as barbaric as ISIS is today. Read your history. Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
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  17. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend
    Spanish Inquisition was bad but not as bad as depicted by English people. As I can see from the Telegraph article, your press hasn't improved much. Not that Spanish media is better, but you can't quote over the picture of a man who didn't say it:
    'No dogs. No blacks. No Irish'
  18. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    I literally quoted the facts.
  19. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    Citing Hitler (aka Godwin argument) as a way to shut down an argument is both a) misunderstanding what the Godwin principle is and b) poor form because we're discussing far-right rhetoric and the analogy is valid.

    One Muslim is not representative of Islam, because Islam in general does not preach the slaughter of all infidels. One white nationalist terrorist is more indicative of the rest of the movement because they all preach the same things. Hate speech, forced migration, assault and yes even murder.

    The organisation called Britain First is not something you should be standing up for. This is not a hill worth dying on, figuratively speaking.

    British people have gotten bad press recently, but the thing here to understand (given that I'm from the UK and have a firsthand perspective here - like many people on here do, I think, but you don't?) is that that bad press is arguably deserved. This was an incredibly short-sighted move by the Tory party that backfired spectacularly because the common voter, mislead by the media and lied to by our government, voted for something that is causing substantial and immediate damages to both our country, and the people in it.
    tatsujb likes this.
  20. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Now that's a whole new level of generalization.
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