Discussion in 'Unrelated Discussion' started by proeleert, May 9, 2016.
@tunsel11 if you understand that from my post I'm done talking to you.
Seems to me that the idea of Brexit is that it'll still be bad and still be a big mess, but it's their mess now.
* it will be more of a mess
* the current government has not been able to handle the existing mess
Ergo, everything will get significantly worse.
People who think the EU is undemocratic have either been mislead, or they don't understand how the EU works on a very fundamental level. There are too many similarities to our existing MP-based system for the MEP-based system to be criticised separately. In terms of political institutions, they're actually pretty similar.
There is far too much misinformation and rhetoric thrown about, and the Remain campaign is guilty of that too. Which is why I try not to judge the merits of the campaigns by themselves (otherwise I could quite easily point out that 95% of the rhetoric around immigrants is basically capitalising on racist undertones. But I don't want to, so I won't press it, or attempt to back up that claim. You can dismiss it). But the facts are significantly harder to distort when laid out by themselves.
1. Leaving the EU will not help the current immigration situation. Amongst the countries of Europe we have taken in the least refugees, or are amongst the countries that have taken in the least. Source: anything around the metrics of Syrian refugees. The refugees taken in by Lebanon alone massively dwarf the numbers we've accepted.
2. Leaving the EU will not help the immigration situation in the future, because a large percentage of our immigration comes from outside the EU. EU laws on free passage (linked to trade law, too) doesn't affect that currently, and thus any immigration proposals to target immigration from outside the EU is currently not hampered by the EU. So why blame the EU?
3. We do not pay the amount the Leave campaign says we do to the EU. We get a massive amount of it back in rebate and other services, to the extent where our regular tax contributions massively outweight any tax the EU takes from us.
4. I don't know what other points go around in general because everybody seems to hyper-focus on taxes and immigrants. A third point could be "the EU is bad because people have told me it is bad" which is terrible logic and yet I've seen people use it.
The EU isn't "undemocratic" more than any first-world voting system is "undemocratic". Our own modified FPTP system in the UK is kinda screwed, yet we keep using it. It isn't truly democratic, nor does it accurately reflect the percentage of votes cast for each party. But that's because pure "democracy", as in, one vote per person accurately-reflected in Parliament, would lead to the same issues that plagued various European countries in decades and centuries past. That's why FPTP was invented in the first place. That's why the UK modified the system. No voting system is inherently perfect nor will it ever be accurate to the desires of true "democracy".
Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and aim for a better system. Which is why I'm here pointing out how the UK itself is undemocratic, by the arguments against the current EU MEP system.
A new agreement, by the way, will be enacted if the UK stays (it's useless to implement if they go after all) that will reduce EU migration.
In the interest of the earlier USE discussion, the renegotiation also ensures the UK isn't forced into this.
But i think it's worth restating that the majority of UK immigration is non-EU and so not relevant to the Brexit.
@Gorbles The EU costs each citizen some money and many of us don't think what we get in exchange worth the price.
For a democracy to be good I think 3 factors are important: the system itself, the voters education and the voters interest. For the EU the last one is too low to achieve a good democracy.
You can make the fairest system but if people can't really think or don't give a s*** you will never get a good thing of it.
Do you know how much the EU actually costs you?
Do you think the current existing UK government is worth its cost? Do you know how much tax you pay them, and the services you get in return?
Voter interest is and always will be incredibly low. That's how the politicians keep getting away with what they do. I don't pretend the EU is perfect, but let's fix the system at home before we start casting blame over the EU. Our government is the main reason we're in the mess we are. Not whoever sits on a chair in Brussels.
Leaving the EU will cost everyone more, at least in the sort to medium term.(or at least put us in more debt)
for example do you really believe the car manufactures will want to stay in the UK, when they don't have access to the free market?
If we do want access to the free market we will still need to pay in, and accept the movement of people like the other country's in that situation. But have no input into how the EU is run, this sounds like a really bad idea to me.
Think he was talking about the controlling of emissions the EU is very strict on. Thus leaving the EU means no restrictions, so more global warming. Polar ice caps melting more and this putting the uk in more dept. Duhh
OK this is just getting silly......
Silly isn't the term.
I'd go with side-splittingly hilarious x'D
Hmm maybe all this political weirdness will make me buy more stuff on amazon.co.uk again...
Early projections are in, with 70% of the votes counted, that the vote was in favor of leaving the EU. So I guess, much like with Trump or Hillary, that we are going to stress-test how bad this can really be, and see if it's exaggerated or truly terrible.
Just remember what my personal friend, the SMNC "Veteran", always says. "Everything in life is a learning experience. EXCEPT THAT ONE!".
Well guess it will be cheaper to visit the UK again.
So what's next a referendum to break up Scotland / Wales so they can rejoin the EU.
Most of Wales actually voted to leave.
Scotland and northern ireland are likely to want to leave the UK and remain in Europe (they voted quite strongly to remain).
Final vote hasn't been counted but leave too far ahead to lose now.
Stupidity 1, common sense 0
It never ceases to amaze and scare me that 1.9 percent controls the fate of a nation and a large collective of nations.
51.9 percent versus 48.1% isn't exactly a landslide and i barely call it a convincing difference. The Schotland referendum was similarly close. Seems to me like there's more room to talk and negotiate rather than ******* over the other half of the country (that is, either way).
Well, let the era of messy politics begin. Pound sterling is free falling. Bremain arguments 1, Brexit for now 0.
(i do sincerely hope that it turned out to be the right decision, or else it will become an even bigger mess).
F U C K off.
I'm done with this country of miserable racists. Hope sovereignty works out for them when they've already back-peddled on the NHS funding and immigration. Britain is awful.
Please don't assume our population to be racist. There are many other reasons people vote for leave. I for one voted to remain, however I know many people who couldn't care less about issues like immigration. It was however rather unfortunate for the face of the campaign that much of it was to do with issues such as immigration.
For me, I was thinking of leaving simply because of how ineffective and draconian I feel the EU administration is. I don't care about issues such as immigration and funding of the NHS in the context of this referendum because there are so many other factors that influence those issues besides EU.
Separate names with a comma.