Assassins just got NERFED!

I'll just clarify why I'm pissed about this: Cloaking during a grapple was the only way an assassin could kill a support who camped at his firebase, if you remove this supports can counter assassins by just letting his firebase do the work. And smoke bombing is way too loud and take too much time to do before a backgrapple.

So I'll ask you this: Should supports be able to counter an assassin by just standing by his firebase?

I finally got around to watching this video and there is a lot of mistakes that I see the other team making. He's really good, no doubt but the other team wasn't fantastic. I'd like to see him on some of the other maps! I'm defintely taking notes.

Regarding fights with Support:
Since the recloaking option is being fixed... The duration of the stun that the smoke bomb has vs a firebase and turrets needs to be increased. The stun increase should be enough for the assassin to smoke a hacked turret, perform a grapple on a nearby pro and survive an escape.

The video is nice but there's a few problems...

1) that was a coordinated team all using mics and who probably knew each other so he could actually rely on his teammates to fulfil certain roles, as evidenced when he backed off from the gunner and the support took it out for him with an airstrike almost immediately. I don't know about you guys, but I almost exclusively play in no-mic public games and rather enjoy myself. I don't want to be relegated to stuffy 'official' matches like that

2) While his playstyle is good, it's not currently the ONLY way to play assassin and still be successful. The 'fix' will narrow the available playstyle choices for this class, which I can't ever see being a good thing. Were people honestly complaining about the utility and adaptability of the assassin?

3) The team he was fighting looked pretty awful to be honest

None of which detracts from his excellent play and the fact it's an enjoyable vid to watch though :3

On the topic of smoke-bombs... does anyone think they'll be able to actually grab a support that you've basically telegraphed your presence to? The big white flash might as well be a message saying "spaz around firing your gun and press jump lots NOW!"
You'd have an easier time catching fish with your bear hands... while being attacked by grizzly bears

He plays an assassin through the entire Uber Tourney and his team won. You can see all the matches (none of the others have commentary) listed in the right column when you follow that link. Some of them are 12 minute games that show different tactics. He uses the Assassin the way I believe Uber intended when they made the class.

That's... insightful? Yes, if an Assassin goes up against another Assassin, surely the Assassin will win...

so... what you're saying is that if Uber wants us to play as the one and only way they intended they should just remove the assassin's ability to upgrade? Because he spends all his money on environmental assets (gremlins for the majority of it.)
Proof of the fact that this is how Uber intended assassin to be played can be found in the commentator constantly pestering you to upgrade and the fact they recently made the bot spawn timers longer... it's reverse psychology put in to distract the weak willed!
Hell he doesn't use cloak much, so they should probably remove that too.

Let's all play this class only one way because that'll benefit the game and make it more fun, won't it? Just like how the support has only one way to be played or the sniper. No potential for diverse playstyles in that lot, no siree

Infact, it's ok everyone! Thread's over. We all just need to be carbon clones of zYn's assassin. Emergent gameplay and diversity are a myth! End of discussion. If you're playing it in any other way you're not playing in the way the designers intended and should leave the game immediately via the emergency exits supplied here, here and here.

Game over. Thanks for playing!



On a more serious note, I think I'll go try his play-style in a public match with no mics and see how well it works out. I'll post my experiences here later.
I'm not an aggressive player but the main change here seems to be leaving the majority of enemy players to the rest of my team, not using cloak and blowing all my money on gremlins instead of upgrading skills or building a turret at the start. It'll be interesting to see what this is like in a non-organised team :3

Don't get me wrong, he is a smart player and his team has him running a very specific role. He only job is to spawns bots, cloak to get the annihilator, and kill bots. Anytime he sees a pro he basically runs. No money put into his skills.

What does this tell me?

• 1) The assassin's only strength is to do what everyone else can already do. I could play any other class and do what that Assassin is doing (probably more effectively) AND kill other pros.
  
  2) It also tells me that this MLG team has decided that none of the Assassin's skills are worth leveling up. That is immediately a red flag in my mind. Why are none of the Assassin's skills worth leveling up? Because they are all made to help the Assassin kill pros, which the Assassin is currently horrible at doing AND will be made worse when the patch hits.

This video shows a solid way of playing the Assassin, as long as your team is supporting you in your role, but also shows that there is a severe imbalance in the Assassin character as a whole. Every other class has multiple ways to be effective. Assassin only has one?

Play how you want, but the glitch allowing you to cloak during a grapple is being removed.

1) Killing Pros when distracted.
2) Killing bots and pushing the lane.
3) Taking out defensive turrets.

What was that one thing again?

I know, I was just pointing out that "this guy is fine, so you should all be fine" isn't really a valid defence. It's kind of like saying "I have trouble sleeping at night" and someone giving you the solution "oh, my friend Cassandra sleeps fine so there's probably nothing wrong"

Yeah, we all get that. But the discussion is how that is going to affect the Assassin class as a whole. AND what should be done when it is removed to make the class more viable. Your comment does nothing to discuss if this is going to hurt the game. I personally think it will cause a massive meta shift that will cause problems for other classes.

If Uber has the time, they should look at the Assassin's survivability and role after the "glitch" is removed and compensate the class accordingly.

As is, Assassins are usually at the bottom of the team (money and k/d). With the ability to cloak while grappling removed, they will be even more of a detriment to the team.

Also, the Assassin's current prey, Support and Sniper, will be losing one of their biggest predators. To keep with the nature analogy, when a prey loses a predator, the population increases. That causes an imbalance in the ecosystem (meta of the game). With the Assassin no longer able to keep Supports and Snipers in check, the following problems might happen (be prepared for lots of slippery slope fallacies):

• 1) An increase in people playing Sniper and Support, causing more turtling, and more games that end in overtime.
  
  2) More Supports and Snipers mean Gunners and Tanks die easier. Which mean people play Sniper/Support more often because the only counter to enemy support/sniper is to play one of those classes.

You just listed one effective play style with multiple goals.

That play style can be summed up by "Pusher".

Every other class can perform that play style (usually better than the Assassin), plus 2-3 other play styles.

Possible play styles for other classes:

• Ganker (Sniper, Assault)
  Pusher (All Classes)
  Healer (Support)
  Anchor (Tank, Gunner)
  Base Builder (Support)
  Base Destroyer (Gunner, Sniper)
  Controller (Sniper, Support, Tank)
  More...

If you need me to list out what all that means and why I listed those classes I can. I figured I might make a whole separate post for it, though, since it'll be alot of information.

First, the K/D ratio and money that a player has earned is related to the player's skill, not a limit to the class as I always end up in the top 3 (in the game, not on my team) as an Assassin. Just because the majority are 'playing the class wrong' does not mean that the class in somehow underpowered or ineffective.

Second, The Assassin's current prey is everyone not one or two specific classes. The goal is to help your team regardless of which class you are playing and preying upon a select few classes will not benefit everyone else.

Lastly, let everyone play Snipers and Supports. A skilled Gunner can kill both as can a Tank. You keep making this sounds like it's rock, paper, scissors when it is anything but that. Every class is capable of killing any other one even with a limitation in place. This is a team game so everyone playing the same role accomplishes nothing.

And now you are just making up roles based upon what exactly? Is the Anchor someone who finishes last in money earned on a regular basis? Seriously the roles are defined strictly by their actions, giving them obscure names means nothing.

You can deal with other Pros either by distracting or killing them. You can push a lane by destroying enemy bots or keeping enemy Pros from killing yours. You can take down defenses like turrets in a base, firebases controlling an area or any class that is trying to hold a specific area. Heck you can even spawn bots, fortify an area, build/upgrade your own defenses, manage map controls such as the ejector or annihilator, etc.

The Assassin can do all of these things!

Lastly, let everyone play Snipers and Supports. A skilled Gunner can kill both as can a Tank. You keep making this sounds like it's rock, paper, scissors when it is anything but that. Every class is capable of killing any other one even with a limitation in place. This is a team game so everyone playing the same role accomplishes nothing.

Assassins ARE capable of killing everyone, it's just INCREDIBLY difficult. Shurikens can get a sniper, but if they're moving around its pretty hard, seeing how they'll usually have a wall to hide behind if they get weak.

Supports are easy, IF you can get them while they're away from their firebase. If not, shurikens can't damage the firebase enough while they're healing.

And tanks can be easy if you lunge and grapple, assuming they're not being smart and checking their back.

Gunners can be pretty easy, same with assaults, and if you catch an enemy assassin without armor then you can front grapple.

Alright, this is a decent discussion. Lets discuss:

I agree with this to a point. K/D or money earned is very dependent on skill. BUT, some classes are easier to play than others. Give a noob the Gunner or Support class and with a little instruction they will be benefiting their team the entire game. Assassin class takes serious finesse. One simple misstep and you die. Which give the other team money and makes them stronger.

As far as the "playing the class wrong" statement goes, it seems that everyone has it in their head that there is one and only one effective way of playing the Assassin. This is sad and shows an imbalance. Which is evidence that something needs to be fixed.

Assassins have an incredibly hard time killing Tanks (too high health) and Assaults (flying all the friggin time). So good Assassins will usually avoid them or only attack when the opposing player is outnumbered. No reason to give the other team free cash, right?

Now I list Snipers and Support as their main prey because those two classes are the hardest to uproot for other classes. Good snipers can keep Tanks, Gunners, and Supports at bay indefinitely. Supports can lock down a corner where Tank, Gunners, Assaults, and Snipers can't get a line of fire on their firebases. Who you gonna call? It used to be Assassins because they could get in, kill the Support healing the FB, or kill the sniper surrounded by freeze traps, and get out without dying. Now who is going to uproot those pros?

I agree with helping your team regardless of which class you are playing. So are you saying each class should be able to do everything incredibly well? It sounds like you are dismissing the importance of roles...

Sorry, neither a gunner nor a tank can take out a equally skilled Sniper the majority of the time. Between headshots, flak, and freezetraps, the Sniper will win most of the time. Headshots being the main reason. I say this because I play Sniper 60% of the time.

You're right, every class is capable of killing every other class. But like every other shooter, certain classes are better at taking out other classes. AND certain classes have an uphill battle when facing other classes, meaning that smart players avoid their unfavorable matchups will let their other teammates create unfavorable matchups. I think you understand this because you mention that not everyone should be playing the same role.

The problem I see, is that post-patch Assassins have an unfavorable matchup versus Snipers, Support, Tank, and Assault. And, if smart, have a favorable matchup versus Gunners.

Uber needs to look at what its going to do for the meta-game and plan accordingly, imo.

You keep talking about 1v1 match ups, these rarely happen. In all my time spent playing MNC I only encounter a player by themself maybe 33% of the time. If you see a Sniper have a Gunner mortar their position and destroy their Freeze traps in the process. If you see a Support have a Tank or Sniper distract the turret and keep the Support healing it from around the corner (where you can grapple them easily). No one expects the Assassin to win the game by herself so stop acting like you have to win every match up alone.

The uber staff looked at how you folks were abusing the assassin and were getting free kills without any possible risk. They deemed that unfair and it makes sense.

The lunge was probably meant to be a finisher attack, not an attack to spam them to death with.

I'm not making up roles. This is a DotA/LoL/HoN game at its heart with a Third Person Shooter wrapper.

Some of those roles are basic DotA roles, some of them I renamed to fit the mechanics of this game. Either way, what you listed before were the goals of ONE role. The "Pusher".

It seems the Assassin has been shoehorned into one role by people who are tired of them having the other roles of "Ganker" and "Nuker".

Of all the things you listed (in bold) which of them is the Assassin the best at? I think none of them. While the Support is best at base building, Sniper is best at killing pros, Gunners are best at taking down turrets (mortar), Tanks are best at killing bots (deathblossom), Assaults are best at managing map controls (manueverability).

The problem is that Assassin doesn't have a role besides "do things other classes do better" with less ability to take on other pros.

I'm sorry, but you must never play Assassin. Getting behind a Sniper surrounded with freeze traps, or waiting till a support is alone near his firebase involved great risk. In fact, in neither of those situations were you even guaranteed a kill. Quite often, one misstep and you were guaranteed to die.

But, since the "glitch" is getting fixed, there is no point in discussing why it is getting removed. We need to discuss what effect this will have on the Assasssin class and game in general. Will it cause an imbalance and cause other classes to get too powerful without a counter?

What needs to be fixed? You keep talking about all of these imbalances but I have never experienced anything unfair while playing an Assassin. I like to think of the class like playing Demon's Souls, if I die I know I made a mistake and need to figure out what I did wrong. The Assassin takes the most thought and yes, most players will die often because they have no idea what they are doing and have very little health to cover their mistakes. That is not an imbalance but user error.

First the Gunner can easily mortar both the firebase and the Support(s) healing it. Worse comes to worse the Support(s) move around the corner from their firebase to avoid the mortar damage. Guess what? Now the Assassin can grapple them without having to worry about the firebase! This is a team game and in a 1v1 match up no class can win every time. Add in a few helpers and now you don't need to win by yourself.

I'm a pretty good Gunner and the mortar can keep even the best Sniper occupied while the rest of your team can get into a better position. The limit to the Sniper is that they can only be isolating a single area at a time so use this to keep them distracted.

Again, let the rest of your team help you win those match ups. If you are fighting by yourself all of the time then you are going to lose as the class with the least amount of health. Sometimes the best thing an Assassin can do is switch classes (just temporarily), too bad most never realize that.