A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and factions

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

I have to say, I picked option 4 because I thought that represented the TA system...

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

People say that. Then they turn around and say this. I will be entirely honest, I don't ever remember there being tier levels in TA as well. pfft.

I have the game installed too. Yet, I didn't play it thoroughly. I will look it up to brush up playing it, then I will play it then. To see if tiers exist or not.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

I Still feel like separate basic and advanced factory's would be better then SC, space management should be an important thing and simply upgrading factory's to build both would also allow players to build a large selection of units from such a small base.

If you can understand my reasoning, separate factory's are easier to target in an attack and their extra space taking make it a choice for and against when comparing basic and advanced units.

(As long as advanced units are not better then basic units, and are equaled in their own uses)

(And the 'Tiers' in TA are just the 2 factory and engineer levels, basic and advanced)

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

That's a very good point, wolfdogg, and I don't completely disagree with the Supcom method. (Though it should be restricted to 2 levels of upgrades.)
However, you do assume that tier 1 would feature units that would be made obsolete by tier 2 units, which shouldn't be the case. The TA: Twilight mod (among others such as uberhack, aa, ba, etc) is a good example of where tier 1 units are never obsolete. They tend to remain the meat of the army, while supported by a strong backbone of tier 2 units. As such, building a tier 2 factory would not necessarily be advantageous for an invading player, as it would be much more economically challenging to gain a foothold.

This being the case, the ability to build an immediate tier 2 factory on an enemy planet presents a larger variety of tactics the player can employ, and may be desirable when the player is not necessarily trying to commit to an invasion, but to use the more specialized units for advanced harassment, misdirection, etc.

That said, both methods have their merits, and I think I'd be happy with either implementation in PA. Testing will no doubt help determine which works the best.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

There is another issue as well new to this game: when you invade/colonise a new planet, do you want to have to rebuild your tech levels/ technology from scratch?

If you used factories with upgrades, it would take the invader of a planet considerable time to progress to produce new, more advanced units, while his oppponent, with their already set up factories on the planet, could retaliate with advanced units straight away.

I think that the upgrade system of Supreme Commander worked well, but this game needs a different approach, so I support separate factories (maybe with minor upgrades each), which might also help reduce the rate at which low-level units become obsolete.

On the other hand, having single laboratories in a solar system environment would be a minimal expeniditure late game for a large tech boost for all bases on all planets (unless the facilities needed were stupidly large).

A final point I have is that that structure in Supreme Commander often lead to a player just getting one factory to T3 and then assisting it with lots of engineers, which always seemed to me less than ideal. Players being made to produce several factories helps a little, but really (much as I hate to say so) I can't think of a better way of preventing this than making engineer factory assists less effective, or using a research system.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

Well If T2 and possibly T3 units are properly balanced with T1 units, then building advanced first or having to build up from T1 shouldn't matter, as you will always have effective enough tech.

As to Engineer assistance, I feel we should have an efficiency cap, where more engineers increase the build speed, but for more and more disproportionate amounts of resources. (Weather economic streaming or SC2 buying, Possibly engineers streaming out resources even if units are bought.)

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

You have some viable points, but I didn't really like the SC2 buying system (maybe just personal preference though), and the other options would need careful balancing.

Also, if T1 units are nearly as effective against T2 units as vice versa, then what's the motivation to tech up in the first place? Even if the units are balanced enough to use at the same time, a player working at T1 only will always be at a disadvantage to one at T3. Reducing the gap from what it was in SC is important, but not so much as that they can fight on par.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

Not may people seem to, I find it to be a better alternative for a user friendly economy and is much better for bad players.
Maybe People might mod it in later.

The advantage of T2-3 units should be the ability to focus your force into a single unit, and overspecialization.

Advanced tanks will be much better at their job, and will be keeping its firepower up until its killed, where as an equal cost of T1 tanks losses effectiveness with casualty's, however their disadvantage is that a heavy tank is slower and is unable to anything other then its job, where as lighter tanks can conduct raids, may be equipped with special ability's like hovering over water and finally come in much greater numbers.

On par for cost effectiveness T2 tanks will will every time, but will easily be countered when out of their role, or when fighting a non-optimal target.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

Even so, it is inevitable that the defender will have the advantage of choice between T1, T2, T3 in this case, and even if that advantage only amounts to accessing specialised units and force focusing, it is still substantial. Invading planets is going to be hard enough already, I am wary of making it harder than it needs to be.
On the other hand, the idea of fewer multi-purpose upgradable factories seems somehow neater, and I would love it if these problems could be addressed.

In any case, I do think there needs to be greater disparity than this between units. There probably are ways to make it work with factory upgrades, but to me having separate factories seems a natural solution to the problem.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

I don't agree personally, but your reasoning for this is understandable.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

That's why I used the term (theoretically). I would preferably like all the units in the game to be relevant from start to finish. No unit obsolescence at all would be excellent and I am totally in favour of it. I suppose bearing that in mind then building either factory on a new world will have it's drawbacks. The only way to cover all the bases is building both (or upgrading to T2). My point was about how long it takes a player to get established on a new world - I'm basically asking should there be a period of vulnerability? Maybe it's not necessary.

On the subject of obsolescence: The way I see it, the T2 units should be more specialised compared to T1. With more extreme strengths and weaknesses. Making them fulfil more specialist rolls in the player's arsenal and at the same time, keeping the more all-round T1 units relevant throughout the whole game.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

This ^

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

+1

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

Yes, put support units in the T2 factory. For example, artillery, EMP units, radar jammers...
Then directly building a T2 factory would be useless, because those units can't work alone.
Then no need for bothersome systems with factory upgrades, engineers with separated building lists, tech levels...

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

+1

There is nothing wrong with a flat tech tree, you don't even need to mess around with two tiers of engineers if you follow that approach.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

I said in the OP that, straightforwardly, t1 units should be able to take on t2 units.

T2 units should, at the very extreme, let you do new things in new situations, but overall be the same strength.

Re: A new way to implement technology, tech levels, and fact

For me it does not matter that much how uber implements unit diversity, may it be with different factories or one factory that can be upgraded.

Something I do object to is being able to upgrade all units of a sudden type that are already on the field with one click of a button. (Supcom2 style)
For instance a type of tank of which there are a hundred in combat, suddenly they would all receive an Anti Air gun because some upgrade was done.

Only the newly build tanks should receive that AA gun, already produced tanks would have to go back to the factory to get upgraded.