3D Terrain a gimmick?

It's too bad you make this argument, and yet further down make an argument for a mini-map. Is it so hard to understand that I'd like to see a full-screen mini-map style strategic view that isn't a separate window but is accessed by zooming out?

You wouldn't modify the game space in the slightest, you're simply changing the view of the camera that is looking at the planet. No client issues, no spacing issues, you just get a different representation of the world space based on the camera you are using.

Try picking a projection that fits your screen for one. (Mercator or a variation thereof would work). Not to mention that the fundamental premise is not to make things clear and understandable, the premise is to make navigation swift and the relative distance and orientation between unit clumps / bases visible. (Is that unit north or south of my main base?)

Again, you make up difficulties that don't exist. It's standard for just about any engine to be able to reduce the complexity of the displayed model (LOD) on the fly based on the distance to the camera. You're basically arguing that their engine won't be powerful enough to display large planets where half the planet equals the entire surface area of a smaller planet.

You're also ignoring the fact that a larger surface area to view means your camera is farther away, which means you're likely going to see just strategic icons (considering that's all you see already when you zoom out) rather than fully rendered units & features.

The only difference between what you are suggesting here, and what I am suggesting, is that my version is simply a full-screen mini-map that you access by zooming out. And by merit of being full screen, it can have lots more detail and be easier to use than a small window.

As for audio alerts, they are insufficient because they are short and they work in a sequential order, not parallel. Ie, you can only listen and react to one audio alert at a time, which is much more limiting than some kind of list or UI hint that something is going on. That's why audio alerts are best used for unique, one time events that MUST always be reacted to (eg, commander under attack, nuke launched, etc)

Can we stop with the alert thingy idea ? (audio or not).

It's not a solution to the lack of information in the game.

Why ?

An alert is only triggered when something happens. In most of the cases, an attack.

We/I don't want a function that tell me when my units are under attacks, I want a function that allow me to see where the enemy troups are compared to my position, so I can plan my strategy. So waaaay before any alert can be triggered.

If I hear a "under attack" alert, it's probably too late to do something smart either way.

We are talking of a massive macro game where planification is everything, not a micro game where you have to babysit your units in every skirmish. For these alert is good, but it's irrelevant for PA.

For PA, we need a overview of the battlefield. "Overview", everything we need is in that word.

I think it's simple notion to understand, I still don't get why you are coming back every two threads with that idea and praise it.

By the way, spring has alerts, I pay attention to the first ones, then after a thousand, you know... It's only good for CoH/Starcraft games.

The one time audio alerts worked for me was in an action strategy game from the mid-90's called Uprising: Join Or Die. If one of your bases was under attack, you got a message saying that, and it's coordinates (B-7) using pre-recorded words assembled into a sentence.

Coordinates in PA would obviously be more complicated if you were being very precise, but for most planetsI think North-West[quadrant]-Day would suffice. The 8 corners of a sphere.

One last time : The problem is not to see when you are under attack, but having an overview of the map in order to planify your strategy.

Because, you know, the S in RTS means strategy.

I can overview my planet quite nicely as it stands thepilot. I don't see how you're having such problems with just scrolling the mouse wheel down.

Does this help?
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=47244

Spending about 60% of my time scrolling make me feel like playing starcraft.
It's a big problem for me, yes. (and it will probably be a even bigger problem when multi planet are in).

Also, I suggest that you check the definition of "overview". There is no overview in PA yet.

Does it allow me to actually manage my units instead of moving the camera all the time ?

o·ver·view /ˈōvərˌvyo͞o/
n.
1. A broad, comprehensive view; a survey.
2. A summary or review.

Nope. Zoom lets me do just that; my zoomed out position is indeed a broad and comprehensive view that factors in the complications of the real world... such as having several million tonnes of earth in the way.

You're simply campaigning for instant gratification when it comes to information presentation. I don't feel like that's necessary and is in fact, a crutch that RTS gamers have come to rely on too readily.

Not having a complete understanding and knowledge of troop movements is part of most real world "Strategy" too.

Your reliance on the quick and easy has made you complacent.

---

Oh and before you call me on it;
com·pre·hen·sive
/ˌkämpriˈhensiv/
Adjective
1. Complete; including all or nearly all elements or aspects of something: "a comprehensive list of sources".
2. Of large content or scope; wide-ranging.

Zooming out is absolutely not a solution to the problem. You can see and control less than 40% of the surface area.

Have you played any competitive-level games yet? Most (casual) players just send all their units in one attack front along the shortest route to their enemy.

This is of course a noob play and vaguely competitive games end up with a large amount of time spent scrolling around desperately trying to micro units in multiple directions and constantly maintain awareness of what is going on around the planet.

I think you grossly overestimate what can be achieved with the flesh-striped skeleton of a unit selection that we currently have access to, when it comes to "strategy".

Armed with initial scouting information I can almost guarantee what my opponent is going to do nine times out of ten.

Scouting after that point becomes a formality more than anything else, just incase there's an opportunity or to see if my opponent is trying to pull a fast one. Other than that I focus on unit production and omnidirectional expansion until I meet resistance... Then I crush it.

Meandering back to the topic at hand however; I feel content with the amount of effort it takes to gather information at this stage of development, that is to say, just above minimal.

I'd like to call attention to this post by Neutrino

If your games are devolving into micro battles, then you're not going to be in that situation forever.

You're focusing too small.

You know there could also be an audio cue for when an enemy unit or a number of units begins moving towards a radar. There would be false alerts sometimes but it could still work.

God please no. It's an horrible workaround.

Where I live (and I guess everywhere), they put sound boxes on the crossroad lights.
It allows people with color blindness or deaf people to know when it's safe to cross the road.

That works. But isn't it better to be able to see the whole road ? Better, the whole city traffic and all the lights at the same time ?

Well, audio cues in this case are the best alternative to a minimap. A minimap would do jack-all to represent anything, except a dot-and-terrain minimap like in TA, and even then that would be disorienting as hell, and to represent any decent amount of legible information it would have to be, in all practicality, displayed on a second monitor.

We already have (semi) strategic zoom, with about 35-45% of the planet visible and legible at once, which isn't bad compared to the 1/20th of the map visible in "tacticool" RTSes like StarCrap and Dawn of Vore. I've been able to make do with it, it's not as good as SupCom's strategic zoom but you can't have everything.

Do you have a better solution?

Never said that a minimap is the solution. It's just better than audio cue, but not by a long stretch.

But PA is not that kind of game. It's hard for me to be happy with less tools than PA ancestors.

Someone had a really good solution.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=49275
Would be a shame if it's not implemented, it's a very elegant solution.

Another of my personal favorite is a shortcut that can unwrap the map in 2d in fullscreen at any time.

Still focused on making meaningless 1 on 1 comparisons?

What about Audio Alerts, combined with additional view ports and whatever else is implemented?

It's still a meaningless comparison of course, there are more than enough fundamental differences between PA and other RTSs to make things awkward.

Mike

This, This, This.

Once again, I don't want to be alerted. I want to know *before* I need the alert without spinning 3 planets every minute.

I fully agree here.

Audio alerts for events that happen multiple times every minute are pointless.
"Commander under attack!" is basically the only warning I think is a good idea.

And probably "Asteroid is coming".

Agreed - hotkey to get a full screen interactive map of the planet you're looking at. No 'mini' required at all.

Highlighted the exact reason WHY some of us find it so important to have an overview. It's a step back from previous RTS games.

This, this and this again.

Would be nice to know what Uber has planned so far about this.