[discussion] Cliffs

Discussion in 'Planetary Annihilation General Discussion' started by aevs, January 16, 2014.

  1. aevs

    aevs Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    I've searched through the forum quite a bit and looked up as much info on PA's terrain generation as I could, but I still have a few questions, especially regarding cliffs. If I'm not mistaken, all current 'prop'-like and hole-like terrain details are done with a combination of additive and/or subtractive boolean operations. While a lot of these details are very cool, creating cliffs along shorelines or other areas where terrain height changes seems beyond its limitations (thanks to the discussion in this thread, I've since been convinced otherwise).
    While I understand concept art is concept art and nothing is set in stone, I would very much like to see options for cliffs implemented into the terrain engine to some degree (like what is demonstrated in the lava biome concept). Is it known if cliffs are a confirmed feature or are being worked on? If so, what is the likely approach to implement them? I'd also like to know how other players feel about cliffs, and what impact they may have on game strategy.
    Last edited: March 5, 2014
  2. LeadfootSlim

    LeadfootSlim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    349
    I'd settle for cliffs functioning properly. I ran into one game where a player was building a nuke inside a metal planet "crater", and all manner of gun, artillery, and even orbital fire failed to damage it because it was treating the airspace above the crater as the ground, which all the shots exploded against harmlessly.
  3. stormingkiwi

    stormingkiwi Post Master General

    Messages:
    3,266
    Likes Received:
    1,355
    Basically it seems only catapults and nukes will handle that
  4. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    The terrain of PA has a lot of improvements yet to be made.

    Uber has been focusing on other features rather than biome generation.
  5. KNight

    KNight Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,681
    Likes Received:
    3,268
    This is technically possible using the current system, it might require that the systems at play have more "depth" than they currently do thought.

    Mike
  6. corteks

    corteks Active Member

    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    89
    We've got a few little cliffs and ramps going on in the desert biome so far. Hopefully we'll end up with these sorts of features across all the biomes eventually.
  7. KNight

    KNight Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,681
    Likes Received:
    3,268
    To preempt the people asking how the current system can do seaside cliffs, let me show you guys;

    [​IMG]

    On the right you see the current way shores seem to currently be handled, a gentle slope that just goes below the water level.

    On the left I have the way I think the current system could handles seaside cliffs, you need a bit of s steeper slope leading up to the water, but you end up essentially 'hiding' it being a brush of a cliff. Obviously this is much more complex than the current uses of brushes seem to be, combine that with the potential need for greater 'definition' in the planet's base mesh to accommodate the slopes needed for this and it's easy to see how while it's technically possible, the systems likely need a lot of work before this might be practical.

    Mike
    Schulti, FXelix and corteks like this.
  8. stormingkiwi

    stormingkiwi Post Master General

    Messages:
    3,266
    Likes Received:
    1,355
    Couldn't it just randomly place "neutral factories" along the sea shore, seeing as units can already path on factories and the teleporter?
  9. abubaba

    abubaba Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    385
    kayonsmit101 likes this.
  10. aevs

    aevs Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Unfortunately, that method could not be used to create contour-conforming cliffs. Even if it's repeated several times along a shoreline, the 'ends' of the cliff will be abrupt and areas where a body of water has a concave shape will not match up. There are a few other problems with that method and the results it gives, so I don't think über would take such an approach.
  11. comham

    comham Active Member

    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    123
    Procedurally generated CSG meshes for the cliffs?
  12. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

    Messages:
    12,074
    Likes Received:
    16,221
    I think PA is capable of using near arbitrary 3D models to do CSG operations on the planet. So you might a few nice cliff parts and add them in. ... I think, might be totally wrong.
  13. KNight

    KNight Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,681
    Likes Received:
    3,268
    I think you're reading too much into my example, there are planet of ways to address everything you bring up.

    Not that it would be EASY mind you, I never specified that it would be easy, just that with the systems currently is use it IS possible.

    Mike
  14. aevs

    aevs Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    I would have to disagree on that point. Your suggested method could never give good results as a general solution for cliffs along the contours of the terrain. If the CSG objects were procedurally generated using information about the contour and the slope along each section of it, it might be passable, but the results would look particularly bad at the top where the brush is supposed to 'blend' into the terrain, and generating an additive brush that matches the elevation and contour of the terrain perfectly is not within the current capabilities.
    bradaz85 likes this.
  15. vackillers

    vackillers Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    360
    I've been an avid campaigner when it comes to the lava concept and whats currently in game as I personally feel the lava is the worst planet type right now though it has over-gone heaps and bounds of changes compared to where it was at several months ago but its stay a far cry away from looking anything like those concept art shots where you do indeed have the terrain elevated with ramps going down into the "lava pits". It brings the whole world to life in my opinion because all the cracks on the surface actually mean something, it gives the impression the hard molton floor could crack and lava will seep through at any moment rather then having lava doing exactly the same as the ocean/earth type planets where it acts more like ocean waves on a sandy beach rather then actual lava.

    @KNight - Loved those examples of the seaside cliffs... very kool I would be absolutely ecstatic if the game engine can do that.... I hope they'll enable this in game I think it would add a lot to the game myself and as brainpurkiss has mentioned PA still has a lot of elements to improve on, their focus has been entirely on nothing but on the actual game itself to get that part finished, the pretty aesthetics will come later which hopefully will include raised terrain and cliffs. To the OP though it does still seem to be possible to include the concept art terrain still in the game as Knight showed.
    bradaz85 likes this.
  16. abubaba

    abubaba Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    385
    If you look at the August 2013 livestream, you'll see that the lava planets did look a bit more like the concept art back then.. they had the so-called "lava pits". They decided to change it to the more flat look, because they thought it looks better. All I can say is that in the latest streamed dev game yesterday, the lava planet looked absolutely gorgeous, lava pits or no.

    Edit:

    Lava planet stuff starting from 22 mins:

    Last edited: January 16, 2014
  17. aevs

    aevs Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    My point wasn't about lava planets specifically, so much as it was about cliffs in general. I like that lava planets use terrain height to define lava pools, especially since the alternative was small pools of similar proportions created with brushes. I still think that cliffs along shorelines and other areas would be a fantastic addition to both earth and lava planets.
  18. abubaba

    abubaba Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    385
    I think the best answer you are going to get is that they are still working on the terrain, to make it and the gameplay more interesting.
  19. pantsburgh

    pantsburgh Active Member

    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    39
    I think you're all making this more complicated than it needs to be. Cliffs bordering water can easily be accomplished with subtraction brushes that dip below the level of water or additive brushes that create land. What you should be asking for is some additional brushes + seeding changes built specifically for this. There are even existing screenshots of the crater brushes doing this.

    To address the OP, there are very few limitations that CSG puts on the terrain; it was specifically chosen by Neutrino for this reason. Additionally, props like trees and rocks are not done this way; they're done similarly to units so that they can be reclaimed/burned down.

    Edit: Relevant examples - http://allenchou.net/2013/07/bending-solid-geometry-in-planetary-annihilation/
    Last edited: January 16, 2014
  20. comham

    comham Active Member

    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    123
    On a partially related note, have there been any other dev blogs recently?

Share This Page