What if Armor endorsements were based on a % of your base hp

Now, hear me out. This is all hypothetical and an merely for the sake of an interesting discussion.

As it stands, currently armor endorsements are a flat bonus of 100/200/300 dependent on rank. Obviously this means that it effects weaker classes far more than stronger classes. Now ignoring the fact some players choose to run no armor endorsements at all (fairly rare but still happens.) lets just look at the numbers currently

Sniper/Assassin both have 300base health.
Bronze: 100bonus health translates to a 33% increase.
Silver: 200bonus health translates to a 66% increase
Gold: 300bonus is 100% increase.

Support has 400 base health.
Bronze: translates to a 25% increase
Silver: translates to a 50% increase
Gold: translates to a 75% increase

Assault has 500 base health
Bronze: translates to a 20% increase
Silver: 40% increase
Gold: 60% increase

Tank and Gunner both have 700base health
Bronze: 15% increase
Silver: 30% increase
Gold: 45% increase (all these are rounded.)

What is interesting to note is that the light classes also have significantly better natural health regen. This is regardless of if they have a health endorsement or not.

Light classes (sniper/assassin) have 5seconds before health starts regening, and it takes 5seconds to return to full health.
Medium classes (assault/support) have 6seconds for both
and Heavy classes (gunner/tank) have 8seconds

A gunner with gold health regen endorsement is barely going to regen faster than a sniper with gold health endorsement. (Sniper is regenerating 120hp per second over 5seconds. Gunner is regenerating 140hp per second over 4.8 seconds.)

Now what if we made the endorsements based on the heaviest classes hp increase % (BASE hp, this means the % increase would not be effected by support or tank's passive bonus hp)

So in this case it would be: Bronze: 15% more health, Silver 30% more health, Gold 45% more health

Sniper/Assassin
Bronze: 345hp
Silver: 390hp
Gold: 435hp

Support:
Bronze: 460hp
Silver: 520hp
Gold: 580hp

Assault:
Bronze: 575hp
Silver: 650hp
Gold: 725hp

Gunner/Tank:
Bronze: 805hp
Silver: 910hp
Gold: 1015hp

While I'm not suggesting this be done, I actually think it would upset the games balance A LOT more than it would help it. I think its an interesting thing to think about. It certainly brings the game a lot closer to the default non-custom classes and makes the endorsements a lot more in-line with the default "non-custom" classes. If something like this WERE implemented however I think they'd have to give Sniper/Assassin/Support about an additional 35-50hp for their base hp (which imo wouldn't be a terrible thing.)

Glass cannons don't need survivability and destruction. I am glad when an assassin has to choose between armor and something useful. I don't play armor assassin, and I know how strong they are when they don't use armor (albeit fragile).

I like how the devs designed the armor endorsement system very well. The numbers given to you make armor necesary to lots of classes to survive certain 1-time things, and then makes them unable to endure a constant damage fight (mini vs mini).

Also, it gives heavies less of a health incentive for the fact that they get more of an overheal incentive for armor, on top of their already larger health's overheal incentive, and their speed coordinating well with supports (they stick along better).

Well designed already, IMO anyway.

I agree that the armor endorsement needs to be % based, its not fair that the lighter healthed class's get a larger benefit from the skill.

Start at tank, and make the percentage = to 300 health for him, use that percentage across the board.

I'm sick of +300 health assassins who can smoke bomb away and return in 5 seconds as if nothing happened.. at least give me a better chance of killing them when they are trying to run after a failed attempt.

Please don't turn this into a "this needs to be added because of X" thread. Just discuss this as a hypothetical situation.

The biggest problem I see with a % based system is that light classes would HAVE to run gold to really see a benefit from it. +45hp is nothing, that barely more than a single bullet from an SMG

this... This... THIS... THIS...

You want to nerf the assassin, not armor. You are doing a very bad job of it. What this will do is give you assassins that can still barely survive charges, with endorsements that actually matter (he said they would have to increase light class's health). Their gold armor let's them have the cushion health they have at gold now, but they won't use it since they can run gold rate with silver or no armor.

The assassin with armor survives a charge. They die at a charge-deathblossom. Assaults die from a dagger backstab, with armor they survive, yet they still die to headshots. Gunners with gold armor can survive lunge-backstab by dagger with armor, not a headshot. Tank can survive a headshot with armor, making him the highest health class (in leau of of speed, safe combat distance, or small body).

You see the heirarchy of armor? More direct combat class, more armor. Each level of class armor and class armor+endorsement is designed to survive certain things. Well-designed. Nerf assassins directly if you want to nerf them (another class I don't play that I can OHKO getting nerfed, what a birthday this will be). Don't nerf armor.

busted lol

and currently they all gain an even amount of health; fair imo

True to some extent, however when nearly everyone is packing an armor endorsement it feels like something is wrong.

A % system might work but as I said it'd need changes in other areas.

FYI A Lunge - back grapple kills all classes but Tank with silver or higher and max passive it does 1075dmg (if you have passive 3)

Assassins need the armor to survive a face grapple of another Sin. A 300 HP Assassin could not do the job she was designed to do.

Learn to deal with Assassins tinygod.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "busted" I actually state that if this idea WAS implemented you'd need to buff the base stats of the assassin/sniper to somewhat compensate. I also state that I don't think it should be implemented. This was merely a hypothetical scenario for discussion of how the armor mechanics in their current and this hypothetical form effect gameplay.

Dagger Dagger Dagger.

I only said Katana in there once. Anywho, most those classes could barely survive a assassination with silver, I was compensating for lunge.

^

This brings up an interesting point, if the base hp of an assassin at 300 is unable to do what she was designed to do then isn't there a problem with how the armor endorsements effect the game as a whole? No endorsement should truly be REQUIRED, some should be better than others for certain situations and classes, but certain endorsements should never simply be required simply due to design of the base statistics/gameplay

In fact every class can get away without using armor, it just gets tougher to pull it off without getting caught by stray bullets and you know some sin who just thinks "lol no armor let's facegrapple her entire game", which is okay in it's own sense because it means that she's taking time to take out a sin while not killing bots.

I play sin without armor. I figure the boost in rate, crits, reload speed, skill regen, health regen, or whatever... is a good incentive to just play more carefully.

Gold rate, silver skill regen, bronze health regen, can abuse some strengths. Imagine if sins had the armor to use 3 other endorsements please. Not a nerf. Probably not necesary to let her do that in the future.

But grimbar, you yourself have stated you stopped running no-armor on sniper and have gone back to silver armor.

As an assault I personally find the fact I can charge through assassins/snipers or simply air detonate a bomb nearby them for a 1 hit kill to be rather appalling. Level 3 charge-grapple I can understand one hitting sniper/assassin with no armor but not the basic level 2 charge.

The classes were indeed designed with the idea of frailty and risk/reward. Without any armor the risk for assassins at least often far outweighs reward, however the silver armor gives 66% bonus hp to those light classes and helps to effectively REMOVE the the "risk" factor of the risk/reward.

A % based system in theory would fix some of the removal of "risk" but as I stated earlier the risk factor of a lack of armor on assassins at least is often outweighing the benefit and thus light classes would need a small base hp increase.

On a personal level I'm entirely for an increase to base HP for light/medium classes and a subsequent nerf to the armor endorsement. However this is starting to get a bit off topic

Like it or not, you started a topic about changing the health for all class's. This was always going to lead to a debate on rather or not we feel this is warranted. I just brought that debate to fruition. Even in your original post, you started in about snipers/assassins needing extra health if this happened.

Do you not see the hypocircy in that statement?

you say "assassins need the armor to survive a face grapple" and "Learn to deal with assassins" in the same breath.

If health was given in %'s than you would simply have to "Learn to deal with Assassins Jessep"

I have made this argument before, and have been told the same thing:

I said that Assassins currently set the bar in the meta game for required health across all class's.

Currently their grapple mechanic is so powerful, that it actually LOCKS class's into having to take the armor endorsement that lets them survive it.

All class's are required to take what they need to survive a face grapple, and tanks almost always take what they need to survive a back grapple.

OP or Not "i'm not arguing that point" this is the way it is. Its now part of the meta game. And yet when I said that before, I was told, NO you can learn to deal with assassins and not need the armor. Yet when I make the argument that you can learn to deal with face grapples, and have a % based system, I'm told that it would screw up light class's in their ability to dealt with face grapples. Thats a lot of hypocrisy.

So If you want my "totally on topic response:

You can't have % based systems, because the entire meta game revolves around the damage of a face grapple / back grapple and the need for a certain number of health to survive each, based on class. Rendering the entire discussion pointless.

But I still feel that light armored class's are getting too much benefit from this, they are lightly armored for a reason, they pack the most potent abilities.

Back grapple and Headshots are OHK (one hit kill) mechanics, and yet they can nearly DOUBLE their life with one endorsement.

This is going to get a bit off topic....

I just want everyone to know, once and for all, that a tank's lvl3 charge into a deathblossom actually does MORE damage than a face-grapple. A assault's lvl3 bomb does AT LEAST EQUAL damage as a face-grapple. A gunner does MORE damage to an opponent than a grapple in the time it takes to do it. A shotgun that got crits does MORE damage, and without crits it comes close to as much.



MOAR gaddamit. Any questions?

Put your hand down, I wasn't being serious.

Assassinations, thus, only partially determine willingness to use armor. Assassinations, lvl2tankcharge-deathblossom, lvl2or3 assault charge, lvl3 bomb, headshots (and previously bodyshot spam generally), triple mortar, and assault grenades... are all considerations into the uses of armor. Armor will let a sniper and assassin survive 2 AoE grenades from assault, 1 bomb, 1 charge, or a facegrapple. Bronze armor on a support/assault will allow face-grapple survival, gold will allow back-grapple. Gold armor on a gunner will allow survival of katana-facegrapple, gold on a tank will allow survival of anything under the right conditions.

Still, how much faster can you kill an enemy with gold rate instead? How much faster can you spam skills with gold skill? How much safer is an extended gunfight and larger is damage output with reload speed?

I like it the way it is. It makes the endorsements much more meaningful customizations.

Its more than "meaningful" its a must have.

Go look at all of your custom class's

how many of them use the following endorsements: (I will list mine)

Armor: 6
Rof: 5
Skill Recharge: 5


Crit: 0
Healt Regen: 0
Speed: 0
Acc: 1
juice: 0
Reload: 0
Clip size: 1

What does that say about the current endorsements, some are simply TOO good to pass up on any build.

Those are just my numbers, I'd be interested to see others.

Tells me you either play nonstop tank assassin, or you need to do the following:

-Put clip size on your sniper
-Put clip size on your assault
-Put crits on your gunner
-Put crits on your sniper
-Put accuracy on your assault
-Put accuracy on your gunner
-put reload on your gunner
-put reload on your tank
-Put reload on your sniper
-put health regen on your gunner
-put health regen on your assassin

Health regen on assassin without armor endorsement is a waste.

0.8 bronze knocks off 1second of delay and gives you 75hp per second regen speed. However bronze armor gives you 80hp regen per second and allows you to survive a level 3 bomb blast from an assault or a level 2 charge from an assault or level 3 tank (something no amount of health regen would save you from.)

Clip size on assault is a preference thing. RoF is better due to the more get in-damage-get out-repeat nature of the assault (plus his reload on rifle is extremely fast) however if you are using his grenade launcher more than his rifle than the clipsize is typically better.