upgrades (not really)

in the consept video i just noticed one side of bots moving faster than the others, can we have these "upgrades" available?
i am thinking of it being more in the line of sidegrades than upgrades, this way we can have five times the variety with the same amount of units. on the list of sidegrades you could select when you build a unit (yes, no upgrades for those aleredy built) we could have high explosive vs armour penetrating shells, speed vs armour, fire rate vs damage dealt and so on. this fits into the philosophy of the game since even if they are made to perfection it still makes sense that you could optimise for certain scenarios.

example scenario: after taking a canyon area and reaching the amount of mass/metal points to start my space program i decide to defend my territory. i start building heavy tanks with the atributes "heavy armour" and "fast fire" as i know my enemy relies on light bots and light tanks. a slow heavy tank is useless in an atack against such an enemy as they are easally out manouvered, in defence however this is not a problem.

i dont know how this should be done but i dont think it should be reserched like in other games. the idea is that you try to make the optimal army for your specific play style or situation. a way to go is that you can choose one or two atributes out of four, six or eight (IDK) possible that come in pairs where you can only take one (speed boost and heavy armour for example).

i hope my english doesent kill the message. please read creativly as i am sure some run on sentances might not make 100% sense.

i know mavor is against upgrades btw, this is a stab at an alternative that still adds some difference in charracteristics.

No. Gameplay visualisation. They moved slower because it looked cool and imposing, not because they were "side-graded".

No upgrades, No Side-grades. End of story (at least for the base gameplay experience)
You're free to mod it in... but I 100% guarantee you that side-grades won't be in the base Planetary Annihilation game.

Feel free to disagree with me all you like below by the way, and post all the ways that Upgrades and Side-grades would be "awesome" etc. but they're just not in the scope of Planetary Annihilation's focus.

If you're talking about 5 different types of Kbot and Tank, spanning across both T1 and T2, then you're talking sense... but that's already confirmed, so it's not really a suggestion and you would have confirmed this by looking at the Confirmed Features 2.0 thread.

At which point this thread is largely a duplicate of many other threads discussing the "Single Tech Faction, Many Ideologies" threads.

If you want to build a Heavy Tank with a Gattling Gun.... there will probably be one.
If you want to build a Heavy Tank with a Missile Platform... there will probably be one.
If you want to build a Heavy Tank with a Laser Turret... there will probably be one.
If you want to build a Heavy Tank with a Big Cannon... there will probably be one.
etc. etc. etc.

What you are describing is basically making different units for different situations. You don't need upgrades for that. You can simply have many different units for that.
Balancing the game so that many units, tactics and strategies are viable is a big part of game balance and gamedesign.
Finding out what unit roles are needed and what counter relationships there are should be part of the development process.
A mishmash of units roles defined by customizable attributes is arguably much harder to balance but ultimately no different than having a diverse unit pool in my opinion.

Relevant information:

So the idea of researching a tank with "Heavy Armour" and "Rapid Fire" is out too. You don't research them, you already have the ability to build them... just construct the factory that holds the blueprint and queue up as many as you like.

Simple as that.

sorry, just liked the idea of units filling larger areas when it comes to roles so we can have more spread in what they do. i'm ok with this not being a thing, sorry for pissing you guys off. the thing is that i agree that upgrades suck (see starcraft) but i actually like tradeoffs.
the upside of the sidegrades is that you can specialize and mix up the playstyle a little as you can make a great rush unit that is terrible in defence and vise versa.

its ok, just move along. just me juggeling ideas.
EDIT: the idea is not for reserch guys, you "tweak" the stats of the unit when you build it. annyway, just me thinking aloud...

There will definitely not be "tweaking" of unit stats before you build them.

Dear Science... the micro involved in that is insane... let alone the balance issues. :?

sorry, move along. your jimmies seem rustled.
i dont rreally see the micro element though, i want to make 20 heavy armoured tanks, that is 1 extra click. annyhow, i understand this is not happening. sorry for treading on the rules here, just suggesting stuff.
this was in the kickstarter vid so i was just imagining how it could be done without the reserch element and keeping with the "post reserch" vibe. sooo, yeah. dont mind me.

that one got me :lol:

Oh Christ, this is precisely what ruined SUPCOM2, aside from the terrible eco. Too much micro.

The micro is fine, because you have a smaller scale, and even then on the larger maps it is still good.

The techtree is badly designed, poorly thought out and badly implemented, but it's micro is actually pretty good.

Excessive micro is bad, but micro in it's self is just more choices and decision to be carried out by a player and a re a good thing to have.

Edit: Its micro wasn't what ruined supcom 2, however it's design and implimentation is a reason for the game being less then it could have been.

So say that instead, if you please.

Personally i dont getwhat is so micro with this, we are talking of a single click for an entire bach of units. This might be a problem but it adds tactics to a strategy oriented game. I do agree that this is not macro stuff, but we arent tallking about babysitting here.

Another way to go is that you choose this stuff in a deck before the match. i guess this topic might be deadin any and all incarnations.

How many HP is an extra point of speed worth?
What percentage of and increase to fire rate would Build Time equate to?
How much Metal would a decrease in Turn Rate gain you from the blueprint?
When does a unit become unusable due to it's HP being too low, even if it's super quick and fires 20 times a second?
Who would use their own tweaks after looking on the forum and seeing the "best" way to configure each unit?

How do you balance it?

You've created, not a way to customise your units, but a way for min-maxers to set the curve and pwn some noobs. There WILL be an optimum way to "tweak" a unit and once someone finds it, you might as well set those tweaks in stone. Every scrub will copy what they see Pro players do and won't think for themselves.

This is just a bad idea in every single respect. Sorry.

yes, but it wont be the best for all and situations every use. also, why mess with the price?
the amount of tweaking i'm thinking of is around 15% to 20% + or - so the stats stay reasonable but not op. artillery should never become machineguns.
siege tanks with extra speed might not make sense for an all out attack since 20% more speed is still not enough to outmanouver lighter stuff, however it could be used for backup and guerilla attacks.

why do you read "upgrade" in "sidegrade"? one sidegrade is going to be better in a regular blob war while others make a unit more acceptable in defensive roles or against certain enemies.
this doesent have to be big stuff, the idea is that you can gain the upper hand by preparing and gaining intel about your oponent(s).

Again I ask you:

How do you balance it?

How much is an increase in Damage per Shot worth in terms of Hit Points?
How much is a decrease in Acceleration to Max Speed worth in terms of Damage per Shot?
How much is an increase in max speed worth in terms of Acceleration to Max Speed?
How much is an increase in Health worth in terms of Hit Points, Max Speed, Acceleration, Damage Per Shot, Fire Rate, Turn Rate or any number of other stats?

What is DPS worth in Speed?
What is Hit Points worth in Fire Rate?
What is Acceleration worth in Hit Points?

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You're literally asking for an exchange rate in Stat-to-Stat tradeoffs.

There is always a strongest currency in an exchange... always.

Eh, balance isn't really an issue with this idea. While there probably would be a few combinations that would be better to others by default it doesn't necessarly mean you'd only have one superiour one.

(Speed for units used to raid, hp for units to do base assault with, etc.)

You don't really need to balance the changes in characteristics too much as long as the possible variations aren't too large.

Nevertheless, its still not an appropriate idea for the game. The main problem with it is readability. Considering the scale PA strifes for it would be impossible for your opponent to know how your units got altered at a glance. Different effects and different stats need to be easily readable. The game will be hard enough to read to assess the full situations on a whole planet (not even speaking of multiple ones) without having to do busywork on identical units to find out how they differ.

Also, as has been said, any large enough variations for an unit are better served with new units instead.

if there are big enough differences between upgrades for units to serve entirely different roles they may as well be added as new units. otherwise it's superfluous production micromanagement.

People keep saying "Just add another unit instead" like it takes 3 seconds to design, model, animate, and texture a new unit.

As far as how to balance it? The same way everything else is balanced. Through play testing. And if you think play testing ends after the game is released, you're in for a big surprise.

OP's idea reminds of of Empire Earth's upgrade system, which I love, love, love!

Would be cool as a mod.

But not in the base game.

Yes, but at the same time if you want to maintain a high level of readability, you need to model the countless parts for each upgrade of the different units.

Otherwise how do you expect to tell about a tank that goes 10% faster and has 15% DPS apart from the unit that goes 10% slower and has a 25% faster Rate of Fire?

Otherwise you end up with the SupCom2 Situation where you had no idea if powerful research like ACU Overcharge or the Vet upgrades have NO visual indication and while some like Overcharge was obvious after the fact, others like Vet you have to guess at based on the outcome of a battle, if you managed to keep track of all the different stats and how they were affected by the 'known' upgrades and such.

Not a very user friendly system.

Mike