Thoughts on the start of game build

I've seen some talk about this here and there, so..


The first minute or two is pretty much the same in any RTS, something along the lines of:

Resource building=>Power building=>Factory

This isn't much fun. There are ways around this; For example, you can start with preset buildings, but that would take way player agency, and doesn't work with well with generated maps like PA's will be.

You could ignore it, but that's boring and makes for a short post.

I think the best way around this was in Metal Fatigue, which had a thing called Prebuild, where you had a limited space and budget to build those first few buildings with the build time cut down to almost nothing.
You also had further limits on what you could build, and there was obviously a (host-set) timer for multiplayer.

It was fluffed as the commander deciding what buildings to have beamed in with him, which would work fine here.

For PA, I can see it working like this:

-You can build in a set circle around the commander's start point.
-Just the most basic buildings. (No units I think, too easily abused, and just another thing to balance against)
-Build times could probably be left at normal
-You'd control the comander like normal, to avoid coding extra stuff.
-Something like 2-3 minutes for the default timer?


What do you guys think?

Sounds like "no rush" timers & pre-built bases (albeit customisable) in Sup Com/Forged Alliance.

In Zero-K, your first factory is built instantly. I heard that SupCom 2 has something similar, with an amount of resources you can build with instantly.

But even with those, the first instants of any game are an APM race to build structures, as a few seconds gained early on can mean, for example, having one more light raider. A way to avoid this early APM race would be nice IMO.
No-rush mitigates it, but you still gain advantage by planning faster, and the early game isn't quite the same without rush.

I like your suggestion, as you don't have to rush the construction of the first buildings. I would add that you should be able to then give your first orders at this point, like which units the factory should begin, and what your commander should do next.

Another way to do it would be to let you give orders before game start. With a free factory like in Zero-K and the ability to give orders to yet unbuilt structures, you could skip the entire early APM race as well as the first instants of boredom waiting your first factory is complete.

IMO pointless.

I like the sound of the Metal Fatigue idea a lot.

Zero-K also plays well and sees real action before the 2 minute mark, although there is still an apm issue there as only the first factory builds instantly, not resource generators etc.

I have an opinion similar to thorneel's: start the game paused for an adjustable amount of time (let's say 60 seconds) during which you can queue up as much as you want, but a little more in depth than SupCom or TA. Sort of like this:

- Queue buildings with commander (like SupCom)
- Queue units for factories (like SupCom)
- Queue orders for units that have been queued to be built (beyond SupCom)
- Queue build orders for engineers queued to be built (way beyond SupCom)

With the procedurally generated worlds, this gives the opportunity to take a look around a map you've never played before. It's not a "No rush" period because nothing is happening and nothing is being built; you're just queuing up a series of orders to start executing as soon as the game starts.

Personally, I think if a person can't handle a couple minutes of setting up your initial structures without getting bored, you're playing the wrong game. There's other instant-gratification games out there. Maybe Starcraft? :roll:

The problem isn't that it's a couple of minutes in one game. It's that it's the SAME couple of minutes, game after game. That gets tedious. Players generally develop a choreographed and personal series of actions which they will perform more or less identically at the start of each game. Why not let them do that series of actions fast rather than forcing it to take longer?

This reminds me of a problem that as far as I know is present in every TA-like game except ZK. Basically in teamgames I don't see why everyone should build a factory. With optimal play there would be few factories built, the leftover resources can be used much more usefully.

Mechanically there is not much wrong with this way of playing but it is a bit boring for players with no units. One of the greatest problems a game can have is when best play and fun play are not aligned.

Zero-K gets around this by making the first factory build by each player completely free. This also removes the minutes of repeated builds at the start of the game because you can have scouts out fairly quickly. Sooner player interaction (just scouting in this case) is better because the change snaps you out of the same old repeated builds.

They've already said that there is an expectation for some micro in the beginning of the game, that being the base building and whatnot.

That said, there has already been discussion on having advanced building templates:
http://forums.uberent.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=35690

These, if implemented, would be preserved from game-to-game.

Personally, I like a little section of down time at the beginning of the game. I think it gives the players time to to exchange 'GL HF' and have a quick chat, it also gives players time to look around the map. If the game is being commentated it gives the commentators a bit of time to talk about the players, the map and what they might expect.

That said I kind of understand the concern of a slower playing losing out because of APM spamming at the beginning of the game, but I think being able to set up templates that would save across games would fix this nicely. If a minute or two of down-time at the beginning of the game is going to put a player off, this probly isn't the kind of game for them anyway I suspect.

The more downtime you have at the beginning of the game from waiting for buildings to finish, the less of an effect having your commander walk in the wrong direction will have on your ability to keep up with the other players. The "mistake time" becomes a larger proportion of the total time until first contact with other players, because "boring build time" where you can't make mistakes is reduced to almost nothing.

It's good to save time at the beginning of the game, just be aware that it will negatively affect beginners who spend more time trying to figure out where to put their factories or other buildings.

SupCom:FA does this just right. You have enough resources on the bank to directly start with the factory, so you get up your production rather early.

This. And then you immediately start deciding what units to build for use in those crucial first few minutes, while the commander begins building a few resource structures. It would be depressing and annoying to just focus on getting those first resource structures up while fretting over things like minor pathfinding issues on the commander that steal precious half-seconds from your entire build order to get your first factory up.

Having some time to give orders before the actual beginning of the game would be better. You have time to decide which factory you should begin with, particularly with an unknown procedural terrain. Then, if everyone selects "ready" before the timer is out, then the game can begin faster.
If you use the factory construction time, you first have to choose immediately which factory to use and where to place it, then you have a fixed time to wait, which may be longer than necessary.
Once the orders are executed, the first free factory means that everything begins faster, but only once everyone is ready for it. The side-effect of having everyone building a first factory instead of assisting another player is also interesting.

So you avoid the APM race, and the "boring" waiting time is reduced to only waiting for everyone to choose "ready", or the timer running out.
Note that micro=/=APM race, you still micro the first few steps of your development.

I haven't minded the "boring" section of RTSs for years, but maybe that's just me. In reality, if you're being bored during this period, you aren't using your time right
It's supposed to be used for planning out a strategy and some mild banter with your teammates and opponents. I say leave it. Sure, maybe have some predone 'build a factory and a mex' or something, but seriously. It's not necessary if you're using your time efficiently.