The Titan problem.

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by mjshorty, January 11, 2021 at 2:46 AM.

  1. mjshorty

    mjshorty Well-Known Member

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    With the exception of the Helios as it has an entirely different and balanced role, the Ares+Atlas+Zues dynamic is not in the right spot for the game in how they compete with eachother and how they compete with other units.

    The problem

    The Ares is so dominant that it obsoletes most other land units and other titans and it devolves into a game of who has more Ares in team games and high-eco games. Its all about who accidentally makes a mistake exposing their Ares. The entire game at that point is centered entirely around the Ares and its a problem.

    Due to the costs of 30,000 metal for each titan, and the way you tech towards each titan is similar, they directly compete with each other for your time and resources, and the Ares is so efficient and reliable that it reduces the zues's impact and almost entirely obsoletes the atlas. The Ares also has a huge range so it is more difficult to catch an out of position ares and them repositioning to a different part of the map is easier than the atlas do to how much surface area they can already cover

    The atlas has low health, high impact, if you get into their lines, they are screwed. The issue is that when you are at that stage to be able to afford an atlas, your opponent(s) can afford the armies and counters to kill them before they reach their affective range.

    The Zues is the glass cannon of titans. It can still be affective in certain situations as its able to stack with air and quickly move to different points on the map and easily reposition unlike the ares and titan. However if the zues gets caught out a reasonable air force, it quickly dies. It also cant charge more than 10 galatas or a spread out spinner force without taking significant enough damage to be destroyed.

    Short term solutions easy number changes to help alleviate some problems.

    -Reduce health from 80,000 to 60,000
    -Remove Ground AOE (it has a short range aoe that 'crushes' things, and it removes the option of using short range units like infernos/vanguards and boombots from killing out of position ares as a tactic)

    -increase health from 40,000 to 60,000

    Long terms solutions redesigns that make the titans more fun and dynamic rather than 1-dimensional

    Atlas - Midrange assault bot: can tank and take risks to kill high hp targets.
    -Redesign the aoe shockwave to be smaller, more focused at one point with a longer cooldown, allows counters of atlas to get in close while giving atlas a focus on killing high hp targets (buildings/titans/vanguards)
    -add 2 secondary shoulder mounted guns, mid-range, small aoe, medium damage
    -increase health further.

    Ares- Long-range bombard tank: low hp, middling damage, extreme range.
    -decrease hp further
    -decrease damage/aoe of main gun.
    -increase secondary guns range to 350-400 to match main gun's range.
    -Possibly add light anti-air/orbital guns

    Zues- Strike-gunship: (unsure the approach here as an air titan plays out differently from the other 2 titans)
    Quitch, bthirteen and lulamae like this.
  2. NikolaMX

    NikolaMX Active Member

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    The ground AoE on the Ares helps it not get stuck in wreckage. PA devs have mentioned that noobs are happy/find Atlas OP as it is so they are unlikely to change it :'( but I second HP changes to the two ground bois
  3. bthirteen

    bthirteen Member

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    It's not that simple, each titan (should have) has its role. They should not be made balanced compared to each other, they have to be balanced towards their usage and counters. But the other two are way off\not defined well that I do agree with you.

    Ares has to be a powerhouse compared to others because he's breaking hard turtles. Try to push double walls, 3-5 Holkings, and 1 always ready up nuke. (You can watch my game vs smurf and tell me how to break his defenses without Titan)

    I've never actually build Atlas in my life and I'm pretty sure his current state is like dox, here but yea. This guy should have an increase of hps compared to Ares so it can actually push something. Same logic like ant and inferno, you trade hps, speed and damage for range. Or fix price point metal per hps value (needs testing for sure).

    When it comes to questioning Zeus, it should be an air powerhouse to clean everything when there is a lack of AA in defenses\army. The current balance makes air units inferior to ground units, only advantage is in the short term which is impactful only if there is a mistake from other player (sniping first round of fabbers on double tank opener) or T2 air transition that takes out all eco on the map. Both is considerable risk and really low reward for it, that's why we don't see bombers early anymore or any T2 air. The key issue why Zeus is not used comes from the same Air problem balance we all called for since Season 1 which still is not resolved and now it's more masked because spinners are so strong. Back to Titan. The strong point of Zeus is his flying compatibility and speed, so how do we improve this? We can increase his attack range (to 140-145, just 10-5 off Galata so it should take some dmg when shooting defensive structures but not lose 20-30% of its hps to 450 metal investment and reduce firing range to compensate for that change) so he becomes more obsolete, I don't think he needs more hps buffs because is how the hell do you bring that guy down? It is basically Hornet (you know that T2 air unit that nobody ever built) Titan. You keep him safe with your own air units and slowly push in holes of defenses and that forces the opponent to transition to air (reduced pressure on your ground) or force push (all in) (same thing as Ares just more micro and in the air) And we can fix the price point accordingly (needs testing again).

    When you think about balance on your way, that just makes stuff more complicated. They are not the same units, they don't have the same usage, and should not have the same values overral. If you remove hps from Ares and AoE dmg he can't push anything, he can easily die to 10-20 Levelers with some fodder, Atlas needs buffs only to hps and/or price reduction so he can just soak up dmg, his dmg is insane (HAVEN'T YOU PLAYED TUTORIAL???? (jk)) and Zeus is explained in the upper section.
    Quitch and lulamae like this.
  4. mjshorty

    mjshorty Well-Known Member

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    Hm, thats true, perhaps it could be changed so that the ground aoe just affects wreckage and buildings because I do want to see melee range unit counters.
    Last edited: January 16, 2021 at 7:41 PM
  5. mjshorty

    mjshorty Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that aspect is important, you may have missed that I said 'how they compete with other units'. The issue why I mostly talk about how they play with eachother is that they all cost the same amount of metal with similar tech routes to reach those titans. The issue I find isn't so much that Zues's+atlas+Ares are fighting eachother, its how they interact with the rest of the roster. Zues gets killed instantly if you overwhelm with air fighters or defend properly with AA, Atlas gets kited and killed easily, and Ares is safe and hard to kill.

    The Ares is better at breaking turtles than nukes+atlas+zues but I want to add some more power to the atlas for it to be a line-breaker (I would also say T1 grenadiers with T2 vehicle support is highly dangerous)

    Currently the Atlas CAN break lines if your opponent doesn't expect it. It does it very quickly in fact. I find that the Atlas is far to punishing for those unprepared and for those that are prepared it does not do anything.

    Right now the health fixes are suggestions for the short term, however long term these units need a redesign. The atlas I say could use more ways to attack an opponent (such as adding 2 midrange shouler mounted guns), and reduce its AOE by its damage+radius+cooldown, so it can be a mid-range assault bot and you can put 8-12k health on it so it can tank for the frontlines, but not overwhelm an enemy if it gets in close.

    The Ares health change is in order for players to be able to kill them more easily, however their significant range still matters, and I would add even more by enhancing their secondary weapons so they play to that role. That way you can make active decisions to keep them at mid-range to tank and deal moderate damage or take the risk and push in deep for a kill on a specific target

    I'm not exactly sure what to do with the Zues, because yes it does have a place in the meta and I was hesitant to recommend any short term changes or even get specific with long term ones but I feel it needs a redesign so that the unit can be more dynamic and interesting. I'm hoping for more ideas to be spinned around and see if there is another way to adjust the Zues.

    Some ideas that ive been playing around with are things like making the laser a projectile with an actual range, but with less damage+aoe to compensate, then add other weapons to add to the Zues for more capabilities and approaches.

    How I approach balance is unit viability and representation. At the moment I would say the Ares is overrepresented compared to other units and especially other titans. This does not mean that every unit has to be present in every single match, we don't want the same regularity of Manhattens as we do Grenediers, nor do we want an overwhelming presence of orbital units on single-planet maps, but we do want to see moderate representation across the board for what the units are worth.

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