Having started playing quite a bit again lately I'm kind of disappointed at how weak the uber cannon has gotten. It's great against bots as they clump up but horribly against tanks. Can't even 1 shot an inferno. it seems to have been severely nerfed while the veh have gotten a huge buff. I think the units are fine but I don't respect enemy commanders like I have done in previous builds.
I don't think it's the ubercannon that's weak; I think it's just that tanks have too much HP. Looking at the stats, infernos supposedly have 1000 HP, vanguards have 5000 HP, the commander has 6250 HP, and the uber cannon deals 700 damage. For whatever reason, it can't two-shot an inferno. Could just be an oversight in the coding where the ubercannon was set to only deal 25% damage against structures (anything with the armored tag), but the devs forgot to add an exception for infernos and vanguards, so they're classified as structures and thus near invulnerable to the uber cannon. They definitely need to be changed, though. I've won games with only one inferno and a combat fabber, instantly healing up any damage the inferno might take. For a unit that's supposedly supposed to be able to fend off early rushes, that seems a bit off.
Wow you gave me a quick shock there. The commander has 12500hp in the current build. I don't think it's the units fault just the weak dgun. It was nerfed so it wasn't so good at killing bases, then he inferno and vg came along, and then units spread out better, and now with the reload time nerf coinciding with increased veh speed = noober cannon and squishy commander.
It doesn't seem so bad to me. In the previous patch the aoe drop off was so fast you could barely ubercannon two tanks. Now it is quite easy to get 4 or 5 in one uber cannon. I also think it was horrible that infernos got 1 hit by uber cannon because there was nothing t1 that could cope against a commander. I think it's fine this way.
There is another option; make the Commander have less health so he is threatened by any assailant, not just the prescribed ones. You know, like how Total Annihilation balanced its Commanders? Might be worth at least trying in an experimental build. Oh, and that means we don't have to have a ridiculously overpowered and overpriced T2, the D-Gun can return as an actually powerful and scary weapon, T1 remains relevant throughout the entire game, every game... and we can get away from learning "timings" and start learning strategies. Just a thought.
Uber kinda screwed the pooch when they doubled the hp and damage of the T1 tank and didn't adjust anything else alongside it. I don't necessarily think the Uber cannon is underpowered, I think the balance of the entire game is just completely whacked out. I mean seriously, how did Uber think it was a good idea to double the health and damage of the tank, while doing nothing to improve the dox?
Don't forget, boys and girls, Scathis has said that they've not even made a proper first pass at combat balance yet, they're still tweaking economics.
Well they have said combat balance is coming soon so gonna wait for that before I get all skeptical. I will most likely be one of the first to groan if something is out of whack. They are getting closer to t1 remaining relevant by outpricing t2 at the minute which isn't such a bad idea if they refine the current unit compositions and roles. The way the uber cannon works now you are lucky to kill 2 ants and half an inferno with a blast whereas the same shot would easily kill 12 grenadiers. In TA you knew what you were getting into, straight line of complete destruction is better than blast radius. This made the commander strong against small numbers of flash but easily overwhelmed if encircled by a lot. He needed energy to defend of course which is what most players would attack before trying for the commander. Knowing its possible to easily snipe commanders in pa has almost always been the issue of stale play. Now he can't outrun any unit if surprised and can't defend himself from 4 infernos. Doesn't seem right to me.
However, we have all been made keenly aware by recent comments and livestreams that the T2 > T1 paradigm is here to stay. The specifics of unit-to-unit changes may vary, but the underlying theme remains the same; the timing of when to switch to a T2 Economy and T2 Military is the fundamental decision upon which the balance of the entire game is built. One Tier to rule them all...
I can't wait for server mods, I know I'm going to make my own balance mod, and I've heard you guys in the Realm will as well. Time to see who's the best, friendly competition time?
That isn't quite the point. If T2 is designed as an upgrade to T1, with no discernible weakness to offset it's power in other areas, then the player always has an impetus to hit T2. The only question is whether it is the right time to do that "now". In other words, in an upgrade system there is always a "window" which represent the optimum time for an upgrade. Altering the cost of T2 alters the timing of that window, and how large a window it is, but the window is still there, and will always remain there. The current balance has that window at the point where it comes into play later than most games end, hence why T2 is seen as an underpowered option. Cranking down the cost of this would bring T2 back into play, by moving that window forwards. I'm happy to concede that Uber can balance this better with more time and experimentation. I'm happy to concede that they can make the length of that window broader, and that they can move it to have a timing congruent with the length of an average game. That does not matter though, because the window is still there. Those who would like to see a flatter balance are ill-enthused by this window. We want the decision on whether to build T2 to be based on the choice to make use of the new options that T2 could unlock, rather than the power. This is a subtle distinction, and one that is often lost in the hubbub of the forums, but it is an important distinction never-the-less. However, this does not matter. Uber have their direction and we have ours. I'm happy to let them get on with it while I look forwards to server mods becoming a real thing.
I never saw their decision as too big a deal. It isn't like RTS never use this system. Generally, as long as they balance it on the distant side, it should be good. You used to rush it and use it exclusively. As long as it is later and t1 bulk is used, it is fine. My arguement for that is, that it isn't just an "ideal window". It can be balanced to where it is a tough personal choice between t1 production and t2 upgrade even later in the game. You can get it earlier, but you can quite possibly make the mistake of getting it too early. All it takes is some creative scouting and sniping. You can also get it and try a snipe with it. Even with the ridiculous balance atm, it is more balanced overall than some RTS games. It just needs to get better, because other RTS games are more balanced, and it definitely warrants being as balanced as possible to be as good as they.
Not if they have no mitigating factors that would make them worse than T1 in some way. The concentration factor simply makes them a better "choice" the longer the game goes on, not to mention that the Economic boost becomes more or less mandatory against an opponent who won't cede land to you, after a certain point in the game is reached. That's the "window" MadSci is talking about. The larger the disparity between the comparative power levels of T2 to T1, the thinner the window is, making the timing of that "teching up" phase become closer and closer to a universal constant across all games. The larger the cost of T2, the longer the game must progress for that window to occur. This is really easy to see by the way, just by observing the changes in how people play from patch-to-patch. Right now we're at a point where the average game length does not go long enough to encounter that window; the cost of T2 is simply too steep and acts as a massive counterbalancing factor to the Power Concentration that T2 offers. A few patches ago the cost was so low that the window occurred before a T1 raid was viable, so rushing T2 was a nearly universal tactic among pro players. See the problem yet? Even if there is a "sweet spot" that can be found that nicely coincides with the average game length, T2 is an upgrade over T1. That's a simple fact. It means we have no real choice in a strategic sense, merely a timing window that needs to be hit or you're overwhelmed by a superior force. While it is also true that by limiting the disparity between T1 and T2 allows some overlap (broadening the window and allowing a small modicum of choice), eventually a game will progress to the point at which T1 becomes obsolete as a viable option; the power concentration factor of T2 units and structures becomes great enough to overbalance its unchanging cost and thus, make T2 units a mandatory obligation rather than a choice. Any use of T1 units and structures at that point in the game is nothing but a stepping stone towards a better T2 unit or structure.
I would argue that sweet spot is impossible to find. It's going to be royally screwed over by different factors. E..g. it might hold when you are playing 1v1. But does it still hold when you are playing 2v2? 5v5? 10 P FFA? 10V10? 32V32? Etc.
