The Case for Increasing Unit Health

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by brianpurkiss, October 26, 2014.

  1. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    1: Fun

    It's simply a lot more fun. Battles last longer and unit's don't just vaporize as soon as they get in range of each other. The longer battles last, the more fun players and spectators have.

    2: Increased Strategic Depth

    Because engagements last longer, they matter more. Retreating is perfectly viable. Unit composition matters a lot more.

    Go Try it

    Go play RCBM. Or there's a mod floating around here with increased unit health.

    All we need to do is (roughly) double unit health. Tweak it a little, and Infernos and Vanguards shouldn't get a full doubling of their health, but it's a good rough starting point.

    Increased unit health simply is a lot more fun.

    And I know Uber really wants eSports to be a thing. Well, longer lasting engagements means more excitement for spectators and more time zooming in close to the combat.

    Seriously Uber and all you naysayers. Go give increased unit health a try. It is tons of fun.
    Auraenn, archmagecarn, iron71 and 3 others like this.
  2. igncom1

    igncom1 Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,961
    Likes Received:
    3,132
    I have played these mods, and really, units still get vaporised when 2 death blobs converge.

    It's inevitable, having 50 units all focus fire is simply going to shared enemy units, making battles last just as long on the top scale regardless due to how easy it is to stack fire-power.

    A +100% HP buff is only going to effect the lower scale battles, never the medium and large.
    cola_colin and mered4 like this.
  3. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

    Messages:
    12,074
    Likes Received:
    16,221
    I kinda do see how i.e. dox are basically one hit down, but I don't think that is that bad. You have a ton of them as well. Losing a dox is like losing a hitpoint ;) I guess a +100% buff might look a little better, but it's a tweak I would add after fixing a lot of other much more important things first.
    So let's just make all units 99% more cheaper. Less sim speed = longer engagements :p
    xankar, websterx01, raphamart and 7 others like this.
  4. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    Oh god...
  5. mjshorty

    mjshorty Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    470
    I have enjoyed the dox v dox setup more now simply because there is MOAR! = more destruction and bigger armies and more carnage + explosions~!
  6. ace63

    ace63 Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,067
    Likes Received:
    826
    Except that when two death blobs converge there is no such thing as focus fire...
    mered4 likes this.
  7. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

    Messages:
    12,074
    Likes Received:
    16,221
    There is no need for that really. 2 big armies that shoot at each other = units in the front line get destroyed super fast. That won't change unless you have a really questionable dps to hp ratio.
  8. ace63

    ace63 Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,067
    Likes Received:
    826
    That may be the case but no matter how you turn it, as long as you double the HP of each unit you need twice the firepower to destroy any amount of units and therefore any engagement will last longer.
  9. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    255
    I disagree with point 1, things get absurd when units resist tons of impacts. I remmember in warcraft3 how stupid was to beat a small guy with huge axes again and again and again and again and...
    raphamart and MrTBSC like this.
  10. nlgenesis

    nlgenesis Member

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    20
    This is only true if you make the assumption the the rate at which units are killed is limited by total damage output. But this complete ignores overkill, which is an important aspect I would think. I.e. if normally 10 units shoot at the same target, it is still going to be insta-killed regardless of this HP boost. And in the same amount of time! I don't know exact number, but it is clear that for at least Dox this is very relevant.

    But like OP said: the only way to get a feeling for it is by testing, as it's too complex to be theorizing about. :)
  11. exterminans

    exterminans Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,881
    Likes Received:
    986
    Death blobs are an unrelated topic. They come from the lack of friendly fire (or at least collision detection) which makes a true multi ranked unit compositions rather ... optional. I mean, why use grenadiers when you can just stack cheap Dox? Especially when that Dox-blob is also more agile and efficient amd reaches higher DPS than a complex formation. Plus spacing between units is waaaaaayyyyyyy too low, which in combination with the weapon range is the second prerequisite for forming deathballs.
    Last edited: October 26, 2014
    vyolin, Zainny and ace63 like this.
  12. LeadfootSlim

    LeadfootSlim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    349
    While I can agree on this, I would argue that PA is currently way too far on the other end of the spectrum. A slight health boost would help, perhaps.

    Naval needs at least triple their current health - even if the other units remain untouched - because they're so large and slow that they need to survive long enough to not go poof or else naval combat is a tremendous letdown. The comical example is that a Leviathan can be killed with 2 or 3 T1 bombers.
  13. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    I hate that to. However, doubling PA unit health doesn't resist tons of impacts. All it really means is they resist... 3 or 4 ish shots rather than getting blown up on the first or second shot.

    I would highly recommend giving it a try before you say you don't like it. Because it is most definitely not two units sitting and shooting at each other 20 times.
    gmase likes this.
  14. LmalukoBR

    LmalukoBR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    278
    Why not just halve all units damage? Cause i can see if u double the doxes health, with the current ballance, they will raid too efficiently....
  15. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    There's a number of issues with the Dox... really need an overhaul.
  16. igncom1

    igncom1 Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,961
    Likes Received:
    3,132
    This is my stab at it:

    https://forums.uberent.com/threads/rel-igndox.65575/

    Makes bombers much, much stronger.
  17. nixtempestas

    nixtempestas Post Master General

    Messages:
    1,216
    Likes Received:
    746
    Anti-popcorn is the "other" (see PAMM) mod floating around, and it actually does a pretty good job at dealing with the dox.

    It doubles the health of all units (except infernos/vanguards, which only get 1.5)
    doubles damage of all defenses. I've been thinking about changing this to double ROF so they are better at popping dox
    cheaper and longer range combat fabbers.

    The important thing to note here is that dox still die in one shot from an ant (84 damage vs 80 health) making them suicide against any group of tanks, especially if they are bolstered by combat fabbers.

    and deathball engagements do last longer, (though do tend to drain metal supplies VERY fast thanks to com fabs, which I think adds an interesting bit of strategy of choosing when to engage an opponent)

    EDIT: for full info https://forums.uberent.com/threads/rel-anti-popcorn-units.63209/
  18. eratosthenes

    eratosthenes Active Member

    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    181
    I feel like increasing HP will increase the reward for micro. If units can pummel each other, then there is more of an incentive to focus fire on individual units in every engagement. Once people catch on to it, then you will have to micro focus fire in every game or risk your opponent doing it to you. Then again, I haven't played with double health so this is mostly speculation.
  19. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,879
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    I used to be very much against increasing unit health for that exact reason.

    But then I gave it a try and it's awesome.
  20. squishypon3

    squishypon3 Post Master General

    Messages:
    7,971
    Likes Received:
    4,356
    Yep, micro doesn't really become a factor until you triple or quadruple the health of units. :p
    brianpurkiss likes this.

Share This Page