Find a worker between all the other units, click on green spots, find worker, queue up factories, click dozens of times to queue up (even with shift), build dozens of energy with dozens of clicks. Rinse and repeat. "expand, expand, expand" ... ok, but somewhen I like to command my tanks! After 10-15 minutes in the game it gets tendious... I hope there will be some improvements to the reduce the eco micro in the mid to late game. I like some ideas in FA: tell factories to do the same as other factories, tell worker to build "lines" of stuff with one mouse move, upgrade mexes with one click, hit a "repeat" button in build queues, click x times to select x workers... There are lots of ideas out there, hopefully they will not be forgotten.
Holding and dragging to make a line of things would be phenomenal. I don't know if it feels tedious to me, I kind of like that about the game. Managing a robust economy all while commanding hundreds of units is the appeal to me because it is challenging and difficult EDIT: Then again something to make it easier might be nice when we have multiple worlds, but I'm not sure
Yes, it should be a challenge and should require "skill" - to some degree. I won't take away this for good players. But I would like some tools to get some (not the best) economy running while not investing too much time. Of course ambitios players should and will always do better with more micro.
As said in other threads. Having to click ten times instead of once to build ten energy generators is not a measure of skill at all. But I agree its pretty tedious. Especially as there isn't much choice in the economy. (I'm coming around to want to see the t2 mex removed as its still produces way too much metal compared to the t1 and it only leads to silly metal cost of orbitals, etc. and having to click twice on each metal spot gets less fun the more you play.)
Agreed with OP, economic tedium was a major complaint in SupCom too. Compare to StarCraft where your economy involves clicking the worker button 30-60 times in a full game. People loved TA because it was all about managing big armies - not microing mobile shield batteries, not kiting enemies, not managing the economy. Unlike SupCom, PA doesn't have adjacency and tedium should be less of a problem but it isn't. Sure improving the UI may abate tedium but it still merits a serious look by the design team.
What do people think of the concept that maybe part of the Eco tedium is due to incredibly high cost of things like Nucks and Orbital? Would it be fair to say it's at the stage where things cost so much and you have to make use of "limited" resources to the point where you need to focus too heavily on the Eco aspects compared to other things liek Combat? I've only managed a couple of big team games so far since beta so I don't know how it feels in a 1v1 environment so kinda rolling with my Gut here. Mike
I don't see why economic tedium would be due to the existence of large cost things. If building these things is tedious that's the fault of the economy mechanics and UI.
I guess it'd be more accurate to say that it's not so much the fault of the expensive things that Eco is tedious, but that the tediuos elements of the Eco are made more apparent by the fact you need more Eco to get to the expensive things. Mike
For me it is hard to pinpoint one reason. First I guess is that I have to take all mass on the planet otherwise my opponent does this (and wins). What get's into the way: Visibility: I can only command in about 1/4 of the planet at once (theoretical 1/2, but it is hard to impossible to command units around the borders of the world). In FA I was able to see everything at once. (What about a full screen world map?) Accessability: Find units by the current icon system is hard, clicking something requires to zoom in and out (and zooming in+out+in seems to roll/pitch/move/whatever the view everytime I do, so I need to press N Alt-xxx Hotkeys not to get lost) Repetive: Clicking more than 20-100 times to realize "one" late game command. Typical tasks late game commands are "large scale": build energy farm or build fabrication farm or build endless tanks or build another dozens of mexes ... whatever I want to do with a lot of mass. Mexpoint babysitting: In FA there where some map specific "conflict zones" where the most of the battle takes place. Normally I could forget about 1/2 of my mexes late game because they are behind the lines. Not so in PA. Its like mexpoint babysitting. Theoretically we have a front line around 1/2 of the whole planet, which is huge! Map control is good, but if I can't see the whole conflict zone at once it is hard to master (and involves lots of repetive scrolling and zooming). Zooming and map navigation: In FA (I stress it too much, i know) I was able to use only the pointer and the wheel (!) to get everywhere, no edge scrolling, no map markers. I PA I have to scroll the whole world with the middle button or edge scrolling, this feels like a huge step back for me.
To be honest I have seen and noticed many of these points. If this is going to be a game that contains massive combat. It will need thinks like "Build and drag" to make a line of buildings. Factories with an "Repeat button." You need to know where your idle engineers are. BUT this is only Beta and there are plans the change the GUI (Graphical user interface). There is going to be a sort of minimap and the option to split your screen. Personaly I locked my north and south pools in the options. It helps to avoid confusion and improves my orientation. Tip: Use the normal keys to look around. Fighting on a round planet is diffrent then fighting on a flat perfectly square map.
I agree that building t2 mass buildings is a tad bothersome, and not terribly essential gameplay wise. So, what if we scrapped t2 mass, and instead had t1 mass slowly improve its production at a set rate? That way maintaining control over terrain has a greater importance. It would never increase to the point that it over-encourages turtling, though. The other way- toss t2 mass into orbital with giant mining lasers. They could either hover over mass points, or have a cap per planet and produce a variable yield. Either way, I'd like if the is t2 mass, for it to be cool. Not just, yay bigger number, but an interesting game mechanic that supports orbital gameplay.
I fully agree with many of your points, especially the factory 'repeat' button, T2 mex, and click & drag to create many of one building type. However, I think you are being too critical of other areas. Demanding they flatten out a map because you can only use 1/4 of it at a time is kind of ridiculous. This is the nature of the game, and one of it's defining features, you will have to move around a planet. Babysitting mex isn't the way I would describe it, but defending your base. Yes it is now a 360 degree job, but again, specific to the new feature of the game - planets. It took me a little getting used to playing on a sphere vs a flat map, but once you get the hang of it, managing your base & units becomes easier. Defending is much harder than it used to be in SupCom or TA which is why I recommend going on the attack (the enemy likely isn't fortified every where... go get those un-babysat mex)
I like mex where it's at..... tedious micro is part of any rts .... also line building is coming eventually. As far as orbital mex..... idk..... seems easy pickings for orbital fighters
never underestimate the power of resource storage. -setting camera anchors helps -making unit groups helps (i think u can do this with buildings as well, but i never tried) Basicly, making routine of your camera control will tighten up the battlefield. It comes down to habits that can be adapted to battlefields that are generally random (in starcraft, habits can be consistent since maps are unchanged. A person can have a "favorite map") I have found little issues with econ. If lack of econ availability (space to build power, metal spots occupied) then this is grounds for making agressive pushes on the enemies econ. Again though, never underestimate the power of storage. Orbital launcher can be pretty much bought out of a decent storage pile. Then you have yourself a friendly ticket off that war torn rock.
I agree with OP. Managing a huge economy, ESPECIALLY across planets. Is too much work and too hard. How about taking an idea from the 4X (e.g. auto-explore in CIV5) genre and adding semi-autonomous AI to the builders e.g. buttons for: 1. Build/Upgrade all MEX on planet or within a preset limit. 2. Auto-build defensive outpost (e.g. 3x missile, 1x laser + radar) 3. Ensure radar coverage
Ok, thank you for your suggestions. I played again to check: using pole lock helps a bit to navigate. Also some keyboard shortcuts. Curious to see how the UI and gameplay envolves in the next months. Probably it boils down to some UI improvements. The eco itself is no rocket science and (in contrast to random maps, random opponents, ...) it plays more or less the same in PA and lots of other RTS games (once the balance is finished there will be "standard" starting builds, tutorial videos, ...). So nothing really new here. More micro does not make it "challenging" - but mostly repetive instead. There is a very valuable and restricted resource in the game: time of a player which he needs to pay attention to something. Example: time spent in raiding - maybe not important mid to late game, time not enough spent in eco - deadly all the time Semi automated stuff sounds good, personally I like the idea.
Regarding the auto build and auto radar. So we want everything to be done for us so that it comes down to JUST moving tanks around? If the first thing everybody does at the beginning of the game is just hit that automation, then technically everybodies econ would move up equally until somebody finaly blows one up. And then 5 minutes later the damn thing is just built over again. Like those annoying ai engineers in supcom that would go around reclaiming everything you didnt keep an eye on. Attacking a player from multiple fronts is intended to disorient him. If he just has to put his feet up and let the ai figure out the game then its pointless. Getting a strong econ means you put the time into not having to worry about it later on. Striking a players econ distracts him from the battle front. Its all part of the game. This is why having a good self-made "camera infrastructure" early on will save you in the long run.
remember people we are aiming for a macro game automated and mass-command processes should be involved
Every time I play a game and somebody says "Hi all! its my first/second round" I just straight up say "HI! Welcome! Use N to align north" Every time i get a "NO WAY! oh god thanks!"
I would like to have the freedom to choose (by "paying" with mass/energy/less optimal economic growth) to buy me some time to play the game I like. It was often told this game could be a kind of sandbox - so maybe there might also be a way to configure how much micro I need. Maybe a gameplay option.
