Support and Juice Machines: Balanced Solutions

I know this has been talked about to death, but everyone always seems much more concerned about the problems than the solutions. I'm here to talk about the solutions. First off, the default RoF for the H/H gun needs to go back to what it was before the DLC. It's too slow as it is, and a Support shouldn't have to have RoF in a build to be able to heal functionally, and when it is equipped it encourages shotgun-centric Supports more than emphasizing healing. If it's really necessary to have it be affected by RoF, keep gold as it is now, then put silver and bronze between that and the original default. The other changes are simple: put airstrikes between their pre-DLC cooldown and their post-DLC cooldown (there was a reason it was changed, but there's also a reason everyone's complaining it's too slow) and give the Support an assist for every kill their teammates while overhealed or within 10 seconds after the overheal dissipates. Healed bots will give assists for bot kills, as if you'd damaged one directly.

The problem with juice machines is that controlling them is too simple once you've gained the advantage. It's extremely difficult to dislodge a team from the middle when they have a player juicing every 30 seconds. This is amplified by them also having control of the annihilator, and thus making it even easier for them to have bots pushed up in your base, which you'll have to deal with as you dislodge them. The simple solution is to have juice machines on a team cooldown, so that members of one team buying juice doesn't affect the other team's ability to. It will still be challenging to get in on them, buy juice, and use it effectively, but this would reward teamwork and give players a chance to make a comeback (as opposed to virtually none), while still giving the leading team a rightful advantage.

I'd also like to note that lazer-blazers are entirely useless right now, and that the damage needs to be balanced between the two extremes. A level 3 should be better than a level 1 rock-it turret, but not a level 2.

Devs; if you disagree with any of this, I'd love to know why.

I wholeheartedly agree with almost all of your recommendations, with the sole exception of the Airstrike timers. (Never heard anyone complain about them, nor have I ever had a problem with it)

Also, what do you mean by "Team Cooldown"? As in Hotshots and Icemen are allowed separate timers as to not get locked out by the Juice machines?

Ninja Wallace speaks wisdom. Your recommendations have my support.

Ditto to OP. Except I'm cool with Shotgun support players... there's only a few people that can do it well, and the rest are just sitting ducks. Controlling mid-map with my FB and shotty is my favorite thing to do... I still heal like I'm on crack, and watch the rear turrets, but mid-map is what Support is all about to me. Who cares about the base if the other team can't get past the middle? OP wouldn't have so many issues with the Juice/annihlator area if I was on his team ;P Erm... maybe I shouldn't say all this outloud, noob supports should def. not be attempting an aggressive mapcontrol/support role.. So yeah, ignore that last part.

Also not sure what he meant about team cool down though,.. I mean, thats what it already does... right? I know it's not a per-individual cool down. Does the other team using a Juice dispenser put it on cooldown for everyone, not just his teammates? I thought it was a team thing already...

I've heard a lot of people complain that the skill regeneration for airstrikes is too slow after the DLC, and that it's hurting the Support a lot. But, hey, you know more about it than I do.

Right. So if a Hotshot uses a juice machine, it'll trigger the timer for any other Hotshot, but an Iceman will still be able to buy juice immediately after. Edited my original post to clarify.

It's currently a universal cooldown, mute. Anyone using the juice machine puts it on cooldown for everyone.

Thanks for clearing that up,... I've been wondering that myself for awhile due to issues with the dispensers that pop up @ OT. I agree it should be a team based thing, not universal.


Good suggestions btw.. the H/H gun is mad slow. Just to demonstrate how slow it is now, listen to it when you haven't got a RoF endorsement while you're hitting the moneyball, the coins come slower than Mario bouncing against a coin block.

I really don't get all the hype over the Supports Air Strike cooldown. Lately I have been using Support and keep my Air Strike at 1 and within the first 5 minutes I am able to throw at least 4. Actually go read through all the Overpowered/Underpowered thread and the Supports Air Strike is mentioned a lot also the individual thread about it as well. Just because a few of us hasn't seen or heard much complaining about them doesn't mean no one has.

I agree to some extent but isn't Map Control supposed to mean just that? So because a team has map control you want an option to single handedly regain control or push them all back? Isn't that what teamwork is for?

Can we just leave the support as he is for a while? I like habing the rof gold endorsement for my heal gun. Maybe im the ONLY support that does, but I overheal everyone I can. My connection sucks, so my shotty I awful anyway. I still want to heal teammates, turrets and bots fast.

I'm not saying you should be able to push them back single-handed. I'm saying that, as the game is right now, if a good team gains control of the middle, they win. It's near-impossible to build juice when you're being pushed into your base constantly while the other team has a player juiced at most every 30 seconds, without even counting their members who are building juice. If the juice dispensers were on a team cooldown, control of the middle would still give you a very strong advantage, but a comeback would be much more feasible with a coordinated effort to get someone in on the middle to buy juice and push the other team back.

The original speed isn't very much slower than it is now with gold endorsement. This also frees up a slot for other endorsements, thus allowing the Support more diverse build options, and putting him more in line with the other classes.

And actually, with the added feasibility of skill recovery, air strikes can probably be left alone.

This all sounds reasonable enough to me. Save for the airstrike cooldown being changed again. It's fine where it's at in my opinion. I really like using Support myself, but it doesn't bother me that I need to be thoughtful about how I use airstrikes to get a use out of them.

I'm also in the "Airstrikes are fine" camp.

The HoH gun would be nicer if it did actually do some Hurtin' or Healin' every now and again other than when juiced

The other suggestions are also rather sensible. A team cooldown on the Juicer is a good idea, it doesn't weaken the holding team unfairly in the least, if they're holding that area of the map down even one juiced member is going to be able to keep control of the zone so the other team is still going to have to work pretty hard to get in clear it out.

Then I support this as well. Great suggestions. Fistbumps all around.

The Airstrike was a big part of a lot of Support players playstyles, including my own and Greggyyyy's/SHOW YOUR HEART's (along with a lot of other forum members that have spoken out), because of its versatility. It's because of that insane recharge timer that it lost that versatility that it once had, which is why most of us regular Support players just don't like it anymore. Saving one could clear a lane, save up three to destroy a turrent, using one or two to keep pros at bay or kill them with AOE - there were several different ways to use it effectively. Now, having to wait longer than both Juice cooldowns just to use all 3 with a gold endorsement? That seems a bit ridiculous, considering Juice kills anything and everything faster than any Airstrike will. =/

That being said, I guess I could understand that there WERE complaints made, even if we hadn't seen them. I just don't understand how people could be so upset about them when A) they have a gigantic beacon of light to warn its arrival, B) they have loud siren that practically screams DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR HERE, and C) they have ample time to get out of the area of effect when it lands unless they are frozen or in a grapple. Even as a person that was new to this game, after the first or second time it happened, I figured "Hey, maybe I shouldn't be near the beacon of light that's the opposite team's color. That might be a good idea."

Also, serious question to the others in this thread that say it's fine now (not trying to instigate a fight here, I just want an honest answer, is all): How important is the Airstrike to your playstyle as a Support? In my general experience here on the forums, a lot of people that either don't main Support or don't use it are the ones that say it's fine, so I'm just wondering.

I generally play a defensive support so mostly follow other players on a push or am doing busywork around the moneyball. So Airstrikes for me are used to clear a lane or carpetbomb an incoming jackbot or the moneyball when its under attack. So to answer your question; not super important on a moment to moment basis but an essential tool none the less.

In terms of upgrades it's the second thing I will upgrade but that can change depending on how hard the other team are pushing at that time.

Before the nerf I used them ALL the time. Now they are the last thing I upgrade.

Really I had to relearn how to play as a Support. Do I want the old airstrikes? Yes.

But playing without them, I kinda just got used to it I guess.

If Uber unnerfs them in the future, cool. If not, oh well. :|

When your firebase is gone, you have no airstrikes, your turrets are underfire or dead, and your hack was just used.. your base is underseige or about to be, and you've just respawned.... you'll realize why the airstrike nerf is total garbage. You sit there like a child in cover not having any clue what to do because you have absolutely no weapon to defend yourself with.. meanwhile all 3 abilities regenerating slow as dirt. Only thing left to do is try to overheal a teammate but good lucky. This scenario will play out on Spunky more than any map.

Oh, and wow. we can throw 4 airstrikes within 5 minutes? OMG. THATS SO AWESOME.

Meanwhile the Assault and Sniper can throw 9023849032 bazillion traps and bombs a second, run away quickly, have grapples that ring out people, etc. etc. etc.
Stupid point man.

Current HHgun RoF is slightly faster then Pre update if you use gold endorsement for RoF and slightly slower if you use silver. That always seemed a little harsh in my book.

The airstrikes nerf I am against, they used to be versatile and are now usually saved up for turrets only. I would be happy if they returned it to what it was or somewhere in between. Like others I almost never read complaints about them being spammed, but oh well.

Team cooldown timers sounds good. I approve of this.

I more meant that the community in general, particularly all the support players, had been vocal about it being too much of a nerf.

Right, it is too much of a nerf. Devs were relying on churros, but you usually get churros on the front lines, not playing defensively, so catch 22. They need to bring it back to what it was originally, but I'd settle for somewhere in between.

I should have written it was the devs that got spam complaints about the Airstrike.

The air strike ONLY kills people in 3 ways...

1. They are not paying attention and wander into it.
2. You manage to stick them with it.
3. They are standing on the 2nd lvl with the beacon below them.

Thats it.

The only time I personally ever die from it is when I get distracted and make the mistake of running into them.

You just have all these noob players who get mad because they werent paying attention and lost their juice/killstreak/whatever. Air strike now is too damn slow. Im afraid to take off skill regen because of how much slower it will become.....

Edit: Churros are a joke. Get them once every other game, really helpin out our regen times there.

About the airstrike nerf. I would love to have it back to what it was, at least for the damage. The frequency would be nice, but honestly, im glad I cant just chuck em out like crazy. Makes me plan em a lil better instead of just using it as a tower crusher and panic button. I've gotten crazy good at ground zeros, even at the far end of the range. Not having them constantly has made me a precision airstriker. Im pretty good, and getting better. Not many places you can hide your firebase where I cant hit it. Yeah, there's the lazerazor tunnel, but thats what overhealed, spun-up gunners are for.

I guess I could complain about it and give up on it. Maybe abandon the airsrtike as a legitimate weapon. I took a different look at it though. Its a way to seperate the top support players from the noobs and those that are just dabbling in it. Much like watching a skilled assault shred a team, singlehandedly, there is also art to be found in the way a support uses his airstrikes. I am not the typical "defensive" support. I like to push forward, deploy my firebase in a defensible spot and overheal teammates on the front line. While im latched onto a teamate to heal them, im also their second set of eyes. I call out targets flanking them and use my airstrikes to take down firebases, kill turrets, send snipers running for cover, control the flow of bots, and cut off escape routes for pros my teammates are engaged with.

While all this seems like it would be more fun with faster airstrike regen, the slower regen forces you to be frugal and precise in order to be effective. I see most supports tossing airstrikes directly on my firebase while it is undercover. Keep it up dude, while I throw mine just close enought to clear the ledge above and reach your firebase just on the edge of my airstrike.

I guess I just like for the "skilled" players to have an edge. If you have to throw all three airstikes to hit your target once, you need more practice, or maybe support just isnt your class.

I'm glad the Airstrike is slower to use now. Especially with the new insta-death spawn kill techniques...

*shivers*