Strategic zoom - planets and systems

Discussion in 'Backers Lounge (Read-only)' started by ozonexo3, April 29, 2013.

  1. ozonexo3

    ozonexo3 Active Member

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    In last weeks i think a lot about strategic zoom in pa. In last pre alfa update this was not done yet, so i think we can talk about that. Planets will be orientated on flat, horizontal "map" and from that we can zoom to these planets. So we need to go from standard zoom to sphere orientated zoom. This is quite problematic.

    Zoom need to feel good, player should feel that he move exacly where he is pointing his cursor. Cam cant move too hard and too smooth.

    Main problem i when zooming on sphere. Player is pointing something on sphere and camera should go there. In standard zoom, camera move on vector from cam position to pointed position and this work great, and feels good. On sphere we need also orientate camera to that sphere. To do that we need move and rotate.

    We can still move by vector from camera position to pointed position. Pivot in rotation should be same as pointed position. By that we will have always this pointed position in exacly same position on screen. Wee need watch out on smoothness here. Zoom usualy move 3 times. This is so fast, that camera can lose orientation to pointed point. Best way is propably to multiplay this "3 lines" move from scroll by 3, that gives us 9 calculations.

    We can also hold pointed position to pleace where player was pointing when starting zoom, and released it when zoom ends. This is good way to avoid problems with smooth movement.

    [​IMG]

    You can test that here, but remember this is created quite fast and its bugy. Here you can zoom into planets, and zoom everywhere you want on "flat" system. Rotation by holding mid button is not holding what you are clicked on. And i know, when near to the ground camera should rotate up, to give more perspective, more clear view on units and ground - i turned that off to focus only on zoom in/out. You can still put your camera inside planet.
    http://ozonex.pl/planetaryannihilation/kameratest/


    If we want to ignore this "flat map zoom", we need to specify exactly on what objects you can put your units and build. Its ok with planets, but what about asteroids? There cant be more than fiew asteroids in system becouse of camera controls - will be to hard to manipulate between objects too small and too close from eachother.
  2. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    I think your ideas are going into the right direction.

    After I just tried to play a bit of TA:Spring I can just say how ******* important a good zoom and good strategic icons are. The zoom of SupCom is pretty much perfect, the zoom of TA:Spring is nearly unusable.
    So yeah, the zoom needs to be polished a lot to feel nice. However I am having hopes for PA, as I think the same developers are at work that made the SupCom:FA Zoom. They know how it needs to be done on a flat map at least.
  3. iampetard

    iampetard Active Member

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    Even if it doesn't appear good by the time the Beta is over I'm sure we'll help out with making it very functional
  4. bmb

    bmb Well-Known Member

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    >open source in charge of usability

    As for the camera it's really not so hard, the camera should simply remember your prior ground level rotation and interpolate between that and your space based rotation when zooming.
    After that simply keep the mouse pointer in a constant world location when zooming.

    What is perhaps more important to solve is the response curve. Supcom had a bit of a weird response where being close to the ground was a bit too sluggish and being far away was too responsive. It should be more normalized across the distances. That is it should probably follow the square law. This way each step should feel exactly the same.
  5. ozonexo3

    ozonexo3 Active Member

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    but still quite important problem is when we want to jump between planets/asteroids

    If zoom is sloow this will took a lot of time to see what is going on other planet. We can think about buttons to fast switch between planets. Doing that there will be no need to zoom out and in so much, and just add fast, smoth animation for that. Space is not important, only planet surface and orbit is important.

    When we stay with strategic zoom on system-view, there will be situation, where planets are small on screen. If you pointed them corectly everything is ok, but when you pointed into space, then what should happen?
    We can zoom to closest planet - but camera will go in diffrent pleace than we are pointing.
    Zoom to last planet? same problem
    Dont do anything? Not good.

    All this situations feels bad. I know uber want to do something like in Google Earth, but there is only one planet.

    We can use for that these buttons for each planet, or just something like sensors in Homeworld - fast strategic map. We can make something similar, with planets from we can move, by clicking on this planet/asteroid. But this is not a strategic zoom anymore :(
  6. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    I'd say zooming in to the nearest planet would work? Players will learn to target the planets when zooming in anyway.
  7. KNight

    KNight Post Master General

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    Well the zoom by default should be Mouse Centric, as in you zoom in not based on the screen view, but where the mouse is located, as it was in SupCom, so then mousing over to a planet to zoom is is already second nature not only because it has a precedent but also because that is also how it works to zoom around a planet itself.

    Mike
  8. bmb

    bmb Well-Known Member

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    A keyboard shortcut for cycling planets is a good idea though.
  9. Cheeseless

    Cheeseless Member

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    Also, for the 'slow zoom' problem, couldn't we have a configurable 'scroll acceleration' feature? So that the amount of zoom that is done varies by your distance to the current planet's surface, AND by the speed at which you move your mouse wheel. You could also have SHIFT increase the speed of zooming?
  10. iampetard

    iampetard Active Member

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    Well I have a pretty good idea what the planet management will be like, you'll have a big *** galaxy with planets scattered all over the place and your planets will be clearly distinguishable from other kinds and you'll be able to select and enter in whichever planet you own.

    I assume you'll be able to choose from two styles, one will be typical where you just have a list of planets moons and other stuff and the other will be more visual with actual planets and moons on the screen.

    As for the zoom, adjustable speed would be good. It would be cool if you could actually see your other planets from the planet you're on if you zoom all the way in and tilt the angle (like in supcom).
    I don't know will the in-planet view be separated or combined with the galactic view. Combined would be awesome(so you can do that with the angle zoom) but I might want a bit too much here.
  11. Zoughtbaj

    Zoughtbaj Member

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    Exactly this. It was one of the great features of Supcom, and should be modeled similarly here.

    I wonder how they're going to handle rotation though: will they handle it as rotation around a point/mouse, as shown in the program in the OP, or will it be planet based? In other words, will the camera move on a 2D plane or a 3D plane based around the center of a planet?

    Personally, I think the camera should "lock on" to a planet, looking directly at it at all times. Then, when you zoom out and zoom back in to another planet, the UI "locks on" to that respective planet, making it the new center for rotation. This would ideally keep camera movement between planets smooth. I suppose that movement on a 2D plane for the camera can be supported, but I don't think it should be default.
  12. Cheeseless

    Cheeseless Member

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    I dont think they'll be combined, but i see how making planets you have and have not forces in will come in handy. Maybe have a sort of density map for the current match? An overview of the system with yyour forces and the enemy's represented as colour-coded density. Like in Simcity 4.
  13. ozonexo3

    ozonexo3 Active Member

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    this is how i created that in MiniPA, after zooming on any other planet, camera changed its orientation to that planet.

    About rotation i think its simple - you always rotate around oriented planet or point on flat map. This work great already.
  14. bmb

    bmb Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why a sensitivity setting wouldn't be there just as it was in supcom.

    I actually like mine kind of slow for smooth zooming.
  15. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Please not on shift. Shift is used to queue up commands. It conflicts with situations were somebody wants to queue up stuff for an engie all around a planet.
    Also I really like the speed of the zoom in SupCom. However, I cant remember anymore if it changed it or not, I've been coping the same settings around for years.
  16. nombringer

    nombringer Member

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    I still cant see how I will be able to similtaniously control units on two sides of two seperate planets, without the use of ALOT of hotkeys (saved camera positions ect)
  17. thapear

    thapear Member

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    Multiple windows. You can split the screen (or screens) into multiple separate windows, similar to SupCom1/FA split-screen. This will allow you to simultaneously control units on two sides of x separate planets without the use of ALOT of hotkeys.
  18. crseth

    crseth Member

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    As a starcraft player I have zero problems with that
  19. toorvis

    toorvis Member

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    Personally I love the camera zooming in on my cursor like in Forged Alliance, I don't think I've used the keyboard controls or the screen edge with my mouse in ages..

    I simply zoom out, then back in on where I want to go, it gives me a quick overview while moving the position at the same time. With the logitech "superduperscrollz™" It actually went faster than using camera controls anyways.. that is, until I switched to the Razer Mamba.. best mouse i ever had, but the superscroll makes me want a logitech mouse again..

    anyways, I'm all in for zoom to mouse. If it's better or not I don't know, to me it comes to personal preference.

    ¨~ Chris
  20. Cheeseless

    Cheeseless Member

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    I actually agree with this completely, it'll be the same as playing on a 2d map only you can zoom out a lot more, adjust the angles Company of Heroes style, and the map wraps around top, bottom and sides. Easy.

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