Some small balance issues.

"OMG, BALANCE ISSUES"

Settle down, lower the pitchforks and torches. I'm not proposing major nerfs or class redesigns, just a few balance issues I think should be address:

1 - Assassin face grapple shouldn't be a one hit kill against anyone. Assassins are designed to make it easier to grapple. Back grapples being a one hit kill, that's ok. That's part of the character - Stealth assassination. Lunging up to someone from outside cloak distance and insta-gibbing them with a face grapple isn't cool. It downgrades assassin into "DERP!", "R+M2" territory. Back grapple kills everything except tanks, face grapple should be considerably less effective.

Yes, you can say "derp, get gold armor endorsement", but what's the point of being able to make your own build if you're forced to use gold armor lest ye be face-lung-grabbed to death? And don't forget the lunge itself does damage which adds up to the assassination's.

Back assassinations should be one-hit kills. Face ones should be a desperation/necessity move, and do considerably less damage. If back assassinations are headshots, face assassinations are the bodyshots.

On the other hand...

2 - The Tank's Death Blossom shouldn't insta-gib assassins, or any class, simply for not wearing gold armor either. Charge, ok... It's a powerful skill with it's own cooldown, it's meant to be a steamroller... But something you can spam to death and back, only has a small reload as a pseudo-cooldown, and not only hits for high damage but sets on fire everything in a large area around the Tank, shouldn't be a insta-gib. A lot of Tanks don't even bother using the Jet gun very often because it's easier to just Death Blossom spam, and you may just catch something else in the AoE, so why not!

High damage + fire, ok. Instagib, no.

3 - Gunner's grapple might be a little too powerful now? Not too sure on this one, haven't had much chance to play around with it yet, but for a class that already shreds things at close range, has a very large AoE skill that does damage, stun and huge knock back, also giving it a grab that has both a strong throw AND instagibs most "light" classes, might be a bit much? If I understand right, the previous problem with the gunner's grapple was being unable to land properly. I'd say keep the throw, but lower the damage a bit. All the gunner needs at that point is some room to breath (i.e.: reload).

4 - Mickey Cantor is overpowered. You know it. But it's ok, because we love him. So, keep it.

5 - Scramblers are kinda... The ugly duckling of spawnables. There's already a thread on this, so I won't go on, but they're the only spawnable that really seems like a complete waste of money. Only have a close range form of attack, but are too slow, visible and fragile to survive long enough to get close to anything. Needs something.

6 - Laser Blazers are... the scramblers of turrets. They do next to no damage and they might as well be made of styrofoam for how easily they're torn to pieces. I'd say, keep the damage as is, since the Rockits are supposed to be the high damage ones, but give them a lot more health as compensation. That would give players a legitimate choice: do I want a turret that can dish out some serious pain, but that can be downed relatively easy, or do I want a turret that can survive a beating, but isn't gonna sting as hard?

7 - Not a balance issue, more of an issue, but the aim on the railgun and grenade launcher is a bit off.... They both seem to fire slightly lower and to the left. Maybe it's me?

8 - Support's shotgun's pellets shouldn't just disappear midair... I'm not saying the shotgun should be better at range, but as it is after a few meters the pellets seem to disintegrate entirely. This is very frustrating... Not only when that cloaked assassin is JUST outside of that range and you can no longer track her, but also when that player gets away with 1 health... It also gives the support absolutely no way to fight back or harass targets outside that tiny distance. I'm not saying "be effective at it", I'm saying that he might as well taunt for what good it does. The shotgun should never really be a ranged weapon, and it should remain fairly useless outside close range, but the pellets shouldn't disappear entirely either, IMO.

9 - Not exactly a balance issue, but the Tank's product grenade bounces INSANELY. It's kinda impossible to get it to land anywhere you want without a direct hit. On purpose?

Anyways, that's my feedback from the beta. Game's pretty great so far.

The tank's railgun has spread.

Ah, I see, that might be why.

Does the same apply to the assault's grenade launcher?

Edit: they are the same

Point 6 is particularly true, but I'd also venture point 8 should be looked at, from my personal experience as support. All other points I am neutral towards, I seldom get killed by facegrappling assassins with no armor endorsement as support, and the same goes for death blossom. The gunner's grapple I've not had occasion to screw around with(or against).

I've been hit in the face with the Gunner's grapple to know that it's much too strong. It instagibs light classes without gold armor, and whatever doesn't die gets chucked across the map for a ringout...and all for a cooldown less than normal grapples.

As I play Assassin most of the time, I really dislike how virtually any class can survive a maxed backstab simply by using an armor upgrade (even support). This allows them to instantly counter-grab and instakill, making it hard to do anything but pick off weakened targets. Front stab I can see being weak (it actually is fairly weak already), but backstab "should" either kill or stun for a second or two afterward.

Agreed on the Tank's death blossom. As it is Assassins can't one-shot them with a backstab...let's not make them instagib too.

jump+mouse1 after a backstab, you'll win against most people

I can't do any action for around a second after a backstab (either due to latency or by design) and by that time I'm staring at the respawn screen.

I've lunge-backstabbed tanks before, not sure at what point in health endorsements that stops doing enough damage to kill them with the katana(if it ever does), but remember all the assassin's attacks do more damage from the rear, so the lunge does as well. I don't think I've ever survived a katana backstab as support. I don't use gold armor, but even with passive 3 it kills unless they're overhealed, doesn't it?

Please don't spread completely false info. Tank is the only class that can survive backstab. All other classes will die to sword backstab even with gold armor.

I agree with others that said front grapple does way too much damage. With lunge + front grapple combo, it does nearly as much damage as a backstab. It pretty much forces light classes to take armor. In 360, this didn't seem to be much a problem. I'd suggest a longer cooldown on lunge or less damage on front grapple so that it doesn't kill a full health no armor light class by itself.

I agree with reducing the number of 1-shot kills against people without armor endorsements. But not by nerfing those moves.
Base health should be increased *slightly*, and the armor endorsements should be reduced *slightly*.

You sure they kill every class? I've failed to kill Gunners, Assault, and sometimes even Support classes with everything at 3....unless of course I've just been unlucky enough for everyone to have gold armor.

Failing to kill assault = counter grapple and ring-out (has happened to me countless times)...gunners just mow you down, and support...well, they usually die after anyway.

Wow, that's just a bad idea.

Guess what? You know why light classes are light? They're problem solvers.

Let's see, you got Sniper, and Assassin...

One can devestate one half of the arena solo, the other can defend the other miles beyond anyone else's range.

I think they have to, nay DESERVE to die so easily without armor. Don't change anything to suit the light classes because they're balanced. Stop thinking about stats and think about overal roles.

Normally I wouldn't bother calling a player bad(That's a lie), but allow me to enlighten you. This is taken from the DefaultBalance.ini

Class Health.
BAL_ASSAULT_HEALTH =500

BAL_SUPPORT_HEALTH =400
BAL_SARMOR_MAXHEALTH =200

BAL_GUNNER_HEALTH =700

BAL_TANK_HEALTH =700
BAL_TARMOR_HEALTH_A =150
BAL_TARMOR_HEALTH_C =300

BAL_SNIPER_HEALTH =300

BAL_ASSASSIN_HEALTH =300

Armor Endorsement.
BAL_END_ARMOR_1 =100
BAL_END_ARMOR_2 =200
BAL_END_ARMOR_3 =300

Now that's just a bunch of numbers right. Well lets add some stuff up.

The Assault's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 800
The Support's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 900
The Gunner's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 1000
The Tank's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 1450(or 1300 not 100% on how that works)
The Sniper's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 600
The Assassin's max possible health(Not counting over heal or JUICE) is 600.

Now lets look at the grapple damage for the dagger and sword.

BAL_DAGGRAP_DMGVSPLYR =400
BAL_DAGGRAP_DMGVSPLYR_B =700

BAL_SWDGRAP_DMGVSPLYR =150(Keep in mind this hits 3 times so it's 450)
BAL_SWDGRAP_DMGVSPLYR_B =1000

Also here is the Lunge damage plus Back hit modifiers.

BAL_DAGGER_LUNGE_DMG =134
BAL_DAGGER_BACKDMGMULT =1.5

BAL_SWORD_LUNGE_DMG =167
BAL_SWORD_BACKDMGMULT =1.5

As you can see only the Tank can survive a backstab let alone a lunge backstab.

Now here is the Tank's Death Blossom's damage and burning information. Which applies to all fire effects.

BAL_JETGUN_ALT_DMG =250
BAL_JETGUN_ALT_MINDDMG =50

BAL_FLAME_DMG =-10
BAL_FLAME_INTERVAL =0.5
BAL_FLAME_DURATION =5
BAL_FLAME_DURATION_TANK =1
BAL_FLAME_CRIT_DUR =1

Only if not running any Armor endorsements can the Assassin and Sniper be oneshot by the Death Blossom. In conclusion get better at the game and realize that the Tank is the counter class to the Assassin.

Actually, those numbers just help my point. Also, I'm fairly certain there are numbers missing for the Death Blossom's damage, since my assassin with gold armor can barely survive 1, even before the afterburn sets in. According to your own data, Assassin with gold armor should be 600 health, so 250 death blossom shouldn't even do half, yet it does closer to 4/5 of it. 2 Death Blossoms from full ammo will kill most characters from full life. Just yesterday I nearly killed a gunner fresh of his spawn with one death blossom.

That said, you're helping my point. Face lung (167 damage) + facestab (450) = 617 damage. Anything that's not a gunner requires at least silver armor to survive, and even then you'll only survive at max health, and if the assassin doesn't follow up with some jumping + sword slices (which they usually do). Even with gold armor assassins and snipers can't survive the normal lunge+facestab.

Both of those are just too much reward for how easy and safe they are to pull off. It's the same thing if snipers suddenly started doing 1 hit kills on light classes, and 2 hit kills on heavier classes WITH BODYSHOTS. Nobody would bother going for the headshot anymore, same applies for assassins and tanks lately.

Assassins have all these tools meant to help them move around fast and unnoticed, or get away fast and safe (or safer than any other class). They're supposed to get behind people and kill them. That's ok. That's their role, the same thing as the sniper's headshot. Most assassins now, though, don't even bother getting behind... Why bother? You're gonna kill them with a lunge + facegrapple anyways! Even if they're terrible and you know they're around, they don't care... They don't need the "proper" assassination.

Similar is applied to the Tank. How many Tanks have you seen that don't even bother using the jet gun anymore? They simply charge into a crowd and death blossom spam. The problem is that this works.

Armor, like rate of fire, or regen, or anything else, should be an option to increase your survivability, not a requirement to balance the game against two attacks that are meant to be "secondary" to two classes.

Or just give snipers a 1/2 hit kill bodyshot capacity. Then we can all rage equally.

PTFG.

I've NEVER killed a support lately these days with a lunge facestab, and assaults have their ways to counter you. Lights are fair game. Gunner still takes a beating after lunge facestab regardless of numbers. Plus considering your own health, if they ever took any precautions or otherwise survive due to luck, then you've got 80% guranteed chance of dying if they've got any ammo in their weapon or skills to boot. Especially now that gunner can actually hit anyone with his grapple.

PS. Tanks are slow. Death blossom is limited in range. It also requires reloading. Either your tank has no armor for reload and RoF, or has armor and picked speed up from somewhere. Either way you learn to fight. You're supposed to fight from medium range, meaning move your damn *** out the way if you see one coming. If you're going for a charge with assault (or sin perhaps if he's wounded) then do it between blossoms. A pepper spray then run will do him in most of the time.

So possibly: Lrn2Kite. I recommend L4D, those tanks in particular will teach you how.

I do, regularly.

What, lights should die to anything? Sure, then let them one hit everything just as easily too. Then it's fair game.

How do you take "precautions" against someone basically teleporting to your face from outside "visible-cloak" range and instantly grabbing you? Hell, the lunge can even go through sniper's ice traps, and you'll be dead before turrets or firebases kill the assassin unless there's a million of them around...

And only terrible players rely on luck.

Use of cover+Charge. Your argument is invalid.

L2P. Try most shooters. I'd recommend starting with Quake and slowly going from there.

You act like getting a grapple is a 100% thing many factors come into play when playing the assassin. Choosing your fights is one of them. Also jumping pretty much negates the Assassin's ability to do your massive burst. Staying with your team and communicating in vent(or a similar VOIP) is a good way to shut an Assassin down.

EDIT: You're trippin' over the DB damage. They probably got hit by other things as well.

You can't "choose a fight" against an assassin. THEY do the choosing. They're invisible and more maneuverable than any other character, thus why they should need to backstab.

Grappling is currently a bit messed up and they CAN grapple you while jumping, but that's a glitch, not really a balance issue (unless they leave it). But how do you counter something that basically teleports into your face for an instant grab?

Also, I'm not sure if the lunge cancels jumps, but I seem to be unable to escape from, or have people escape (when I play assassin) the lunge + grab. The grab always seems to connect after. Not sure if it's a glitch, or just random.

And yeah, you can have an entire team scouting for one assassin using her secondary attack, and even then you can't keep her from killing members, just make sure you kill her too, or they could balance classes. Same could be said for an instant-kill body shooting sniper no? You COULD shut him down with a coordinated team, but why should you need a coordinated team just to counter ONE player?

Assassin is my second most played class, my favorite tied with sniper, and I'm the one saying that it's a bit much. It's just cheap and unbalanced being able to lunge and kill someone without having to apply any kind of strategy or tactic. Again, same thing that if sniper was given

They were fresh off the spawn, but I'll re-check and get back to you.

I meant the Assassin has to choose her fights carefully. As in the bots and turrets. The Lunge&Stab is the equivalent to a sniper head shooting you.

The Assassin is easy as POOP to spot anyways. Cloaking comes with an airhorn. Dashing throws dust everywhere. Smoke bomb sends out a distress beacon to alert everyone she's jumping.

Grappling someone out of the air isn't a bug but a difference in ping generally the result of a stressed(or bad) server.

You don't need your entire team to shut an assassin down a tank dealing with the bot waves is generally more than enough because if the Assassin isn't getting JUICE she isn't destroying your base. Just like dealing with the Assassin. You need a Sniper(Read: Counter Class) to deal with a Sniper unless you like losing games.

Oh and uh. Here's the sniper rifle damage. Headshots are x5 damage.

BAL_SNIPER_DMG =100
BAL_SNIPER_ZOOM_MINDMG =225

As you can see they have 2 body shot kill potential :3.