Sin's Juiced Crit Shurikens on Moneyball? And in Overtime?

To me, it seems like Assassins have an easier time taking down the Moneyball than any other class. Shurikens, while juiced and using cloak crits, absolutely devastate the Moneyball. There are many locations on all maps where spamming juiced crit shurikens on the Moneyball from a safe distance is impossible to stop, at least within the time frame that the Assassin's juice ends.

In Overtime this issue is only compounded upon by the damage multiplier against the Moneyball. Assassins will juice up, crit spam their Shurikens against the Moneyball and obliterate its health. All other classes have methods at their disposal that can cause a significant amount of damage to the Moneyball in a short period of time, but this typically requires that they put themselves in some sort of situation, where they have potential to be intercepted by enemy defenders. Assaults, a class that can deal a heavy amount of damage to the Moneyball in seconds with his bomb, usually has to stay on the upper ring in order to avoid turrets. Enemy players can easily cover this location, however, by building upgraded, hacked Rokkit turrets below, as well as contesting the upper ring themselves.

The Assassin has no potential to be intercepted when attacking from a fifth of the map away.

I believe there should be a falloff on Shurikens against the Moneyball to counteract this juiced shuriken crit spam.

I just don't get how bullets have such a short dropoff* but the heavier, less aerodynamic shurikens get to keep their full damage even after 5 ricochets(or however many)

*Sniper rifle bullets have no dropoff and I don't think the Tank's railgun counts. Also really wish there was distance listed on the denkirson stats page

It is quite annoying for the game to have a character who can both cloak and take down the objective from sniping range with huge damage. Those damn pink, trailing whish whish stars just come out of bloody nowhere and somewhere behind you, you know your moneyball's health is deflating away.

Seeing how all all the other classes have to at least come within medium range to do any decent damage to the ball (besides the assault's juiced grenade launcher), some falloff would be sensible, but only applied to the ball and not players or turrets.

Disagree. Juiced Assassins have the caveat of still being one of the lightest classes in the game. They're not doing huge damage compared to another juiced player, but they do have the negative side effect of not doing it with a minigun, assault rifle or something else that will completely maul you as soon as you make yourself known.

The whole point of the class IS to come out of nowhere... and if they come out of nowhere with juice, welcome to MNC. A Tank who bursts in your front door with Juice is just as much of a threat. Same for the Assault or any other class. they just pose a different kind of threat that is a fair bit harder to chase off.

The damage is fine as-is. It's not a huge amount compared to other classes (there have been many, many threads on this topic). And the walls around the moneyball itself limit her viable locations - especially if there are enough turrets around.

The times i'm left for 20 seconds completely unopposed shooting crit shurikens at the money ball right next to the other teams side spawn doors are the times i wonder if anyone is paying any attention to thier base at all.

Its only a problem IMO on Steel Peel where its possible to do it from outside of the base.

I have to say, this is an issue that ticks me off. I usually see this sort of thing happening by the bot spawns. Assassins juice up, and by the time you notice the pink trail of shurikens, hoof it all the way over there to stop her, it's already too late, her Juice is over and she smoke bomb jumps away. The only class that has a hope of stopping her is the sniper from that far away with a headshot.

I would not have a problem if she was somewhat at a distance and I could intercept her or have some hope of stopping her, but as it stands, good assassins will spam the crap out of the MB from a long distance. There needs to be some damage drop off on the MB, like the Gunner's Mini-Gun. It can stay fine the way it is for regular game play, since I know assassins need to kill people & take down turrets with far away shurikens, but against the MB, it is ridiculously overpowered as is.

I was going to mention this case as it's what happens on Ammo Mule especially, but today I found out that a hacked rockit can gain enough range to reach there. But then the question stands on whether there is a turret there in the first place.

I'm pretty sure I've seen it in Steel Peel as well, not the close bot spawn, the farther away one.

Also, hacked Rockit isn't going to stop that juiced 'sin... unless its a lvl3, maybe.
Not sure, must go assassin and test this out.

Considering the Gunner can do 1000-2000dps on the singlebarrel minigun it's not surprising it has a hefty dropoff against the MB(comes down to 100-200dps)

Screwy part is, that dps is at nearly point blank, the shurikens do about 100dps to the MB from any range(assuming all shuri's hit and no cloakcrit)

WALL OF TEXT IMPORTANT PARTS ARE IN BOLD
BAL_SHURIKEN_DMG=61
BAL_SHURIKEN_FIREINT=0.1
BAL_SHURIKEN_SPR=0.03
BAL_SHURIKEN_AMMO=10
BAL_SHURIKEN_JUICE=0.5
BAL_SHURIKEN_DMGVSCRE=0.164
BAL_SHURIKEN_RELOAD=1
BAL_SHURIKEN_RELOADFRAC=0.6
BAL_SHURIKEN_BOUNCETIME=1.0
BAL_SHURIKEN_CRIT_DUR=0.05
BAL_ASSASSIN_CLIP_B=1.5

With no endorsements Assassin can have a max of 15 shurikens fired at 0.1 of a second. An entire clip is emptied in 1.5 seconds plus 0.6 seconds for reload. The shuriken does 61 damage with a 0.164 penalty to the moneyball. Shuriken does 10.004 damage per shot meaning it does 150.06 damage in 2.1 seconds which is roughly 70 DPS

BAL_CORE_HEALTH=10000
66.64 clips to take down a moneyball at 2.1 seconds per clip means it takes 139.944 seconds (Roughly two minutes) to kill the moneyball.

BAL_CLOAK_CRIT_DUR=0.5
BAL_CLOAK_CRIT_MULT=0.15

Firing from cloak grants .5 seconds of crits with a 0.15 multiplier turning the dps from 150.06 per clip to 157.563 per clip

Now because they make such a difference I shall discuss endorsements and how they relate to DPS.

The formulas and variables I am using for this are
Base Damage x Moneyball Penalty = Damage to Moneyball per hit
Cloak Crit Duration =.5
Crit Bonus = (Crit Endorsement Multiplier + Cloak Crit Multiplier)Base Damage + Base Damage
RoF x Ammo = Time per clip (in seconds)
Time - .5 = Non-Crit Duration
Non-Crit Duration / RoF = Number of Non-Crit per clip (divide by max ammo for %)
Non-Crit per clip x Damage to Money Ball = Non-Crit Damage
Ammo - Non-crits per clip = Crits per clip
Crits x (Damage to Moneyball x Crit Bonus Damage) = Crit damage
(Crit Damage + Non-Crit Damage) x (RoF x Ammo + Reload Speed) = Damage Per Clip
1/Time per Clip = Clips Per Second
Damage Per Clip/Clips Per Second = DPS

For this section I will be using NC (Non-crit) and CD (Crit Damage)

Because the guaranteed crits only last .5 seconds you're going to get a mix of damages from your shurikens.

With no Endorsements Non-crit damage is 100.04

No crit endorsements - Add 57.523 to NC (157.563 perclip)

BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_1=0.1 - add 62.525 to NC (162.565 perclip) +5.002 Damage per Clip
BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_2=0.15 - add 65.026 to NC (165.066 perclip) +7.503 Damage Per Clip
BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_3=0.25 - add 70.028 to NC (170.068 perclip) +12.503 Damage Per Clip

I THINK crit endorsements add to the crit multiplier instead of overwriting them because that would mean with bronze crits your crit damage from cloak would actually go down

ROF endorsements are multipliers on your reload speed.

BAL_END_ROF_1=0.9 - .09 firing interval, Subtract .15 from Time Per Clip, Add .5 Shuriken to Crits Boost (157.563 perclip + 0.5 Crit) +0.5 Critboost Shuriken, +8.2533 ~ 22.0088 CD, +0.06 Clips Per Second
BAL_END_ROF_2=0.8 - .08 firing interval, Subtract .3 from Time Per Clip, Add 1.25 Shuriken to Crits Boost (157.563 + 1.25 Crit perclip) +1.25 Crit Boost Shuriken, +11.2545~78.15625 CD, +0.07 Clips Per Second
BAL_END_ROF_3=0.7 - .07 firing interval, Subtract .45 from Time Per Clip, Add 2.1 Shurikens to Crit Boost (157.563 + 2.1 Crit perclip) +2.1 Critboost Shurikens, +20.60824 ~ 24.15966 CD, +0.12 Clips per second

Clip gives you extra ammo based on a percentage of your base. Not sure if it stacks with the passive ammo bonus, but I don't think it does So we'll use 10 for base ammo here.

BAL_END_CLIP_1=0.4 - Add 4 Ammo, Add 40.016 to NC (197.579 perclip) +40.016 Damage Per Clip, -0.07 Clips Per Second
BAL_END_CLIP_2=0.6 - Add 6 Ammo, Add 60.024 to NC (217.547 perclip) +60.024 Damage Per Clip, -0.09 Clips Per second
BAL_END_CLIP_3=1 - Add 10 Ammo, Add 100.04 to NC (257.563 perclip) +100.04 Damage Per Clip, -0.14 Clips Per Second

And finally the last thing that determines shuriken DPS is reload speed which is another multiplier.

BAL_END_RELOAD_1=0.8 - Subtract .12 Seconds Reload Time (157.563 perclip) +0.03 Clips Per Second
BAL_END_RELOAD_2=0.7 - Subtract .18 Seconds Reload time (157.563 perclip) +0.05 Clips Per Second
BAL_END_RELOAD_3=0.6 - Subtract .24 Seconds Reload Time (157.563 perclip) +0.06 Clips Per Second

In order to Maximize effectiveness with shurikens you must find the best combination of Damage and Clips Per Second.

With the Optimum Shuriken Spam Build Gold RoF Silver Clip and Bronze Reload Dealing out a possible 133.42 DPS to the moneyball it'd still take around an entire minute to kill the moneyball without Juice

Important part is underlined
Check the title of the thread

I thought crit multipliers were multiplied in, instead of added together.

1.15x1.25=1.4375 instead of
1+.15+.25=1.4

The only time this would really make a difference is while juiced.

3.0x1.25=3.75 instead of
3.0+.25=3.25
(Gold RoF still comes out on top)

BAL_JUICE_DAMAGEMOD=0.33
BAL_JUICE_CRITMULT_ADD=3
BAL_JUICE_CRITCHCE_ADD=100
BAL_JUICE_FIREINT=0.75
BAL_JUICE_LGT_SPEED=150
BAL_JUICE_MED_SPEED=200
BAL_JUICE_HVY_SPEED=250
BAL_JUICE_RELOAD=0.5
BAL_JUICE_HEALTH=1000

Juice gives you 3+Current Crit Modifiers for damage and everyone when juiced can kill the moneyball in less than 30 seconds.

130 dps turns into around 490 for the assassin and even in then you have 24 seconds before it is destroyed from full health.

Assault bombs do 300 damage when fully upgraded AND they have 3.33 multiplier to moneyball damage totalling at 999 damage to moneyball per bomb. The bomb regens normally in 6 seconds, with a gold skill endorsement that's 3 seconds coming in to a whopping 300 DPS to moneyball with just the bomb.

His grenade launcher with no Endorsement does 75 DPS to a moneyball and when juiced and fully upgraded with passive his crit multiplier goes up to 3.5 times damage without crit endorsements.

60 seconds to kill a moneyball without juice is not very long at all. With juice, the damage is tripled then increased by 25% overall due to fire rate boost and the reload delay is reduced even further. Think 12-14 seconds assuming your shurikens never glitch out and fail to fire using that theoretical endorsement loadout. I don't know how long juice lasts off the top of my head, but I doubt it matters in this situation.

Some classes take 10 seconds to respawn and exit the spawn. Any time spent locating the assassin and engaging her is more time for her to damage the moneyball. The assassin may only require fleeing and repositioning three times before completely destroying a moneyball solo.




The problem is there are weapons that have absolutely no distance falloff and can ALSO reflect off of surfaces and also have unrealistically high damage multipliers. I'm talking turrets become absolutely useless investments because players can position themselves in ways that they cannot be opposed.

Since incoming damage is cut by 66%, as long as traditional opposition against juice cannot be performed (hacked turrets, grapples, launches) then you lose. Period. The only thing you can do against someone that stays out of your reach while juiced is to counter-juice or use (typically) instant kill methods such as headcrabs and airstrikes or counter-juice with a high-damage character. Good luck doing any of those on a second's notice in any given match when you're not prepared for it.

Do we really even need the x3 damage multiplier against the MB in OT? It's 2 minutes long.

My main issue with Assassin is not only the raw power but the "ease of consistency" in applying this power. Standing a great distance away spamming crit shuri's -- even when not juiced -- doesn't leave you very vulnerable. Although an Assault or Tank or Sniper can attack from a similar range, the fact that Assassin's can force crits typically tip the odds in their favor in terms of damage.

Up close damage (Assault bomb, Tank burner, Gunner minigun, etc) by other classes is easier to contest and stop compared to crit shuri spam. An Assault's bomb does deal a significant amount of damage, but I think most seasoned players know that it's very possible to put a near-total lockdown on the MB's upper ring to prevent an Assault from outright spamming the MB with the bomb (usually by throwing a support turret up there and having lv2+ hacked rokkit turrets below). Tanks and Gunners can be grappled and then focused down.

I don't think adding a damage falloff against the MB to shuri's would break the Assassin class at all. The falloff is only meant to prevent significant amounts of damage from a great distance -- using your Shurikens on the MB would still be effective, you would just need to be closer, which puts you in a more easily contested location by enemy defenders.

Oh goody, another nerf Assassin thread. Lemme put my rage face on.




I firmly believe that the power of the shurikans is offset by the Sin's survivability, or lack thereof.

Run gold armor
Have plenty of escape tools and damage reduction effects from consistent juicing/smokebomb/grapple usage
????
profit

Sins have some of the best survivability in the game if they run gold armor. Now they have some of the worst SUSTAINABILITY but thats a different matter. A gunner can stay in a fight longer before having to retreat but he has a higher chance of being killed while retreating or while fighting than the assassin. He is better at sustaining a fight but his survivability is lower. The assassin has tons of tools to get out of a fight quickly, consistently, and safely which massively ups her survivability. However she cannot remain in a fight for long periods of time unless she has juice.

How many Sins actually spam the moneyball with juice from a distance? Last time i checked i run around nearby like a mad duck because it's more amusing and far less dangerous than standing still. They don't call it standing dead still for nothing.

The only way you'll stop me juice rushing the moneyball if i get the chance is to stop me juice rushing the moneyball.

See a problem here?

The only way you'll "fix" that is to stop EVERYONE from juice rushing. The assassin is no more or less dangerous when it comes to moneyball damage than any other class with an assload of juice. She can just do it with more finesse.

I think this kind of falls into the risk/reward category.

Using shurikens from a distance while Juiced: Low risk/High reward
Using sword/kunai on Moneyball directly w/Juice: High risk/ Low-Med reward

I mean, is there even any reason to use the sword on the Moneyball?
Sword/kunai should deal more damage then shurikens to the MB when used in terms of DPS.

Anybody know the damage the sword/kunai deals vs Shurikens against the MB?

I do. Shurikens are way better.