[REL] Logical Changes

Discussion in 'Released Mods' started by bsergent, January 19, 2015.

  1. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Current exhaustive list of changes from base game:
    • Air fighters can fire on ground targets, have huge armor reduction.
    • AA can hit land targets, has tiny amount of splash, reduced fire rate and greatly extended range.
    • Orbital targeting auto fire missile bots. (Now possible, if expensive, to break anchor coverage.)
    • Added all bots and vehicles to unit cannon.
    • Added splash to missile bots. (value 5)
    • Snipers can now target air craft, have halved fire rate, and greatly extended range.
    • All laser towers can shoot aircraft, have boosted range.
    • Velocity of the projectiles fired by some laser towers has been doubled.
    • Added the Cyclops cruise missile.
    • Advanced AA battery targets normal missiles. (I think. This is hard to test solo.)
    • Nukes and anti-nukes are cheaper. (Disabled at present.)
    • Nuke launchers and anti-nuke launchers are slightly cheaper and weaker. (Disabled at present.)
    • Conventional warhead added to nuke launcher. (Disabled at present.)
    • Umbrella targets air as well as orbital. Orbital targets take priority. (Would like ground/water without dirt shooting.)
    • T1 bomber made radar stealth
    • Distributed storage:
      • Baked storage into sources: Same cost ratio as metal storage per point added.
      • T1 Mex: 1333 metal storage for an increased price of 200 metal.
      • T1 Power: Added 3292 energy storage of an increased price of 415 metal.
      • T2 Power: Added 22222 energy storage of an increase price of 2800 metal.
    • Fabs auto repair/assist allies in range when idle.
    Update: First release: 2015-01-21 0831 AM Change: Air fighters can now fire on ground targets.
    Update: Added Skirmish version.
    Update: 1.0.1: 2015-01-21 0848 AM both Change: Basic air turret can now hit land targets.
    Update: 1.0.2: 2015-01-21 1028 AM both Change: Adv Air Turret can now hit land
    Update: 1.0.3: 2015-01-21 1036 AM both Change: AA vehicle can now hit land targets.
    Update: 1.0.4: 2015-01-22 1014 AM both Change: Snipers can now target air craft.
    Update: 1.0.5: 2015-01-24 1156 AM both Change: Fighters now have 25 hit points.
    Update: 1.0.6: 2015-01-26 0946 PM both Change: Laser towers can now shoot aircraft.
    Major Update: 1.0.8: 2015-04-09 0344 PM Added somdudewillson as an author. Several changes.
    Update: 1.0.12 2015-06-01 1129 AM Both change: Set laser range to 200, and removed umbrella land/water targeting to fix dirt shooting problem. Testing resumed.
    Update: 1.0.15 2015-06-01 1250 PM Both change: Nuke changes removed temporarily due to breakage.
    Update: 1.0.17 2015-06-02 1138 PM Both change: Included our cruise missile and returned catapult to default values, consequently adding Diaboy as an author on this mod since he made the models and icon for the cruise missile. Added a dependency for the cruise missile icon mod which is required to give the cruise missile an icon at all. Also removed a number of empty directories and unused shadowed files/folders.
    Update: 1.0.18 2015-06-04 0443 PM Both change: Many changes and some bug fixes.
    Update: 1.0.19 2015-06-07 0434 AM Both change: Stealth bomber, baked in storage, smarter fabs

    FYI, testing is never complete so some things might not work perfectly. Please let us know if there are issues.

    Main description:


    This mod is a collection of changes based on real world logic without respect for game balance.

    The goal is to make a bunch of simple changes to remove RTS invisible wall equivalents.

    It has always annoyed me when combat technologies we have right now in the Stupid Ages is absent from the future purely to preserve a paper, rock, scissors concept of balance.

    "To unbalance it." ~The Oracle

    I'm of the opinion that meaning can always be changed by the addition of context. If some change leads to some "OP" tactic, then I'll simply add something to counter it so long as that addition makes sense in a realistic way, and keep doing that.

    The first change I made was to the fighter_tool_weapon.json.

    "target_layers":["WL_Air","WL_LandHorizontal","WL_WaterSurface"]

    So then fighters could attack land targets as well. It all started there.
    Last edited: June 7, 2015
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  2. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Looking forward to this when you've got all these changes worked in :)

    Also I've just realised what your profile picture is... :D +1 "Bad humans!"
    cybrankrogoth and bsergent like this.
  3. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Hehe thanks :) And correct. Most everything I do or choose has some crazy deeper reference to it in my head, even if it's impossible to detect :p (I live in my own little world.)

    As for the mod, what other units should have targeting limits removed?

    I'll make AA towers and stuff able to hit ground units. I'll make snipers able to shoot aircraft.

    What else should I do?
  4. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Well, I can't get the fighters to fire on anything other than aircraft. I must need to change something else other than just the layers. And I have no idea what that might be :p

    I need a reference book hehe.
  5. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    In the weapon file, just add land horizontal to the target layers. Make sure to run it through jsonlint to make sure it's formatted correctly.
    In the ammo file, remove the _aa from the end of the base spec, otherwise it won't do any damage to structures.
  6. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    fighter_tool_weapon.json
    Code:
    {"base_spec":"/pa/tools/base_fighter_turret/base_fighter_turret.json","ammo_id":"/pa/units/air/fighter/fighter_ammo.json","rate_of_fire":1.0,"max_range":100,"firing_arc_yaw":45,"firing_arc_pitch":45,"auto_attack":true,"target_layers":["WL_Air","WL_LandHorizontal","WL_WaterSurface"]}
    fighter_ammo.json
    Code:
    {"base_spec":"/pa/ammo/base_missiles/base_missile_seeking.json","damage":80,"splash_damage":0,"splash_radius":0,"initial_velocity":150.0,"max_velocity":150.0,"turn_rate":360,"lifetime":2}
    Still no dice. Fighter when told to attack structure will simply circle it. (Identically to the area attack from factory behavior.

    P.S. Relevant to my Avatar:
    Last edited: January 20, 2015
  7. wondible

    wondible Post Master General

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    Your files work fine. Which leaves us with the files being at the wrong path, in the wrong type of mod (usually server, unless you are working with GW) or the modinfo being invalid or inactive.
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  8. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    I tried converting it into a server mod and pamm sees it and activates it just fine. But still the fighters refuse to fire on land targets.

    Here is the code for the modinfo.json
    Code:
    {
        "context": "server",
        "identifier": "com.pa.Innomen.LogicWar",
        "display_name": "Realworld Logical Changes",
        "description": "A collection of changes based on real world logic without respect for game balance.",
        "author": "Innomen",
        "version": "1.0.0",
        "build": "76695",
        "date": "2014/12/29",
        "signature": "not yet implemented",
        "forum": "https://forums.uberent.com/threads/wip-logical-changes.67389",
        "icon": "http://forums.uberent.com/data/avatars/l/1981/1981190.jpg",
        "category": [
            "in-game"
        ],
        "scenes": {
        },
        "priority": 100,
        "enabled": true
    }
    
    Here are the paths:
    server_mods\com.pa.Innomen.LogicWar\modinfo.json
    server_mods\com.pa.Innomen.LogicWar\pa\units\air\fighter\fighter_ammo.json
    server_mods\com.pa.Innomen.LogicWar\pa\units\air\fighter\fighter_tool_weapon.json

    I am testing in galactic war. Would making changes to a unit in all game modes require separate mods for skirmish/etc and gw?
  9. wondible

    wondible Post Master General

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    Yes Galactic War uses client mods. I don't think most of the GW cards and such would muck with the target field. You need to test server mods in skirmish.
  10. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Jesus this is worse than downgrading an iPhone baseband... (And I love the completely broken file uploader.)

    So in order to tear down one invisible wall by making one change to air fighters I'm going to have to make two mods and screw around with a total of 6 files in 6 different locations... How efficient... Anyway...

    Let's start with GW mode.

    https://copy.com/0dfKaSMPvvIZrzO2/com.pa.Innomen.LogicWarGW.zip

    Ignore all the empty folders I made those to save me work later when I make changes to other units.

    What comma did I misplace?
  11. wondible

    wondible Post Master General

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    You're missing the 'pa' directory. Shadowing starts at the game's media directory, so you need the full path below there.
  12. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    I tried that first, still didn't work, then I looked at other client mods.

    My working loadout mod (as yet unreleased) doesn't start in pa. It starts in ui. Give it a try and if it works on your end maybe I need to reinstall or something.
  13. wondible

    wondible Post Master General

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    pa and ui are siblings.

    I took your zip, made a 'pa' directory, and moved 'units' into it. It worked in GW. All I have to say about the effect is that bombers are basically irrelevant now ;^)
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  14. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    It worked! I do NOT understand. I swear on my gimp finger that I tried that. I guess something else was broken at the time and I missed it but have since fixed it.

    Well ok then, the foot is in the door.

    Thanks for your help wondible. And yeah bombers are irrelevant now. :) But that is expected. The plan is for this mod to evolve like war technologies evolve. Sometimes stuff gets obsoleted.

    I've released the mods with this one change. My next planned thing is to package and release the skirmish version. Working on that right now.

    Update: Ok done. Next change will be to make the AA turret hit ground targets.
    Last edited: January 21, 2015
  15. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Ok AA turrets hit ground targets now. I'll need testing in skirmish and GW to confirm. But I'm moving forward assuming it works. Next change will be AA vehicle to land targets. Then advanced AA turret to land targets.
  16. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Changing the advanced air turret was different because it's apparently a beam weapon. It did not need the _aa ammo change. But there is a target priority list that I didn't mess with.

    Code:
    "target_layers":["WL_Air","WL_LandHorizontal","WL_WaterSurface"],"target_priorities":["Air & Bomber","Air & Gunship","Air & Mobile"]}
    All I did was add the layers. Do I need to add priorities to make it shoot stuff on the ground?

    Nope. :) Everything works as it should, at least in GW. So now the question is what next? Are there any ground units that should be able to shoot aircraft?

    I'm surprised that with these changes it didn't feel balance breaking. I wouldn't have cared if it did, but it totally didn't. Bomb bots and the bacon commander separately are more power than air that can target ground units.

    Also I noticed that the fighter won't shoot at submerged units which makes sense because a sidewinder missile is not a torpedo :)

    Also this feels a lot more like total annihilation to me. Which is a good thing imo. I remember using missile turrets as base defense. It operated much like this.
    Last edited: January 21, 2015
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  17. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Now I'm going to try and make snipers able to hit aircraft. If they can shoot down a missile they can hit a plane.

    Done.
    Last edited: January 22, 2015
  18. cybrankrogoth

    cybrankrogoth Active Member

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    As a question, and request...

    I'm wondering how easy it would be to make it so fighters don't hover and shoot? In particular ground units.
    It bothers me that they can.

    Also, and this is a wider issue which I don't expect anyone to suddenly have the solution completely mapped out, and implemented perfectly straight away but...

    With fighters targetting ground units. I feel like they do too much damage since it's easy to spam fighters.
    I'd like it if maybe they did slightly less damage.

    In theory, the first impression is to say well, then we'll have to change all the health of all the other planes to correct it..

    But I actually.. Wouldn't mind just seeing how dropping fighter damage impacts everything else. Without any other changes.

    Food for thought?
  19. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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    Thank you very much for your comments and thoughts! Input is very welcome :) And you're always also welcome to fork the code and make your own version of this effort :)

    I have no idea how to mess with flight behavior, but honestly I don't think I would anyway because we have vtol jets in real life. And god knows what gravity manipulation technology the robots have, plus we don't know the atmospheric conditions or materials science. (aerodynamic surface friction etc) Also I said in another thread that winged craft themselves are kind of silly on airless moons. But then again perhaps the wings are also a frame for thrusters (kinda like the space fighters in battle star galactica.) Given all that I think hovering and the like is fair play.

    _"I feel like they do too much damage since it's easy to spam fighters. I'd like it if maybe they did slightly less damage."_

    Actually they don't seem to do enough damage on closer inspection.

    Game wise, I can just spam AA to counter, especially since AA also now hits ground units. But then again while balance in the sense of PRS play isn't a factor in my mind, there is another layer of balance to consider, and that is the relative impact of weapon systems. A sledge hammer should hit harder than a tack hammer, that's not arbitrary balance that's relative impact.

    Compare the hellfire missile and the sidewinder. It's logical to assume that the fighters are firing something closer to a sidewinder. And yet that missile is larger and vastly more expensive than a hellfire, with the same sized warhead. Why? Delivery system. Catching a jet is harder than killing it. Kinda like a hawk.

    The only reason a fighter in real life doesn't spam missiles is cost and supply. But with nanolathe technology taking both off the table spamming and pot shots become wise.

    One hellfire can kill a tank, but it can't catch an aircraft, one sidewinder can catch an aircraft. But can it kill a tank? Let's think about it. An anti tank yield (HEAT) should be more than enough to kill an aircraft. The problem is delivery, but that's already been solved. Compare a panzerfaust, the hellfire, and the sidewinder, in terms of deliver systems. Shoulder fire, short range missile, medium range missile. Killing the target isn't the problem.

    I'd like some real world basis for manipulating the relative damage values. For example: How many sidewinder missiles would it take to stop an m1 abrams? Well, one actually, if I strip out the 1951 warhead and stuff in a 1970s hellfire warhead. The warhead on both the hellfire and sidewinder weigh 20 pounds. So again if cost is off the table that would seem to be a really solid argument for making every missile fired a one shot one kill on both aircraft and standard tanks.

    So maybe it would be better to reduce the hit points of fighters since in fact it seems that their damage is actually understated relative to tanks and eachother? Then we could just chalk up the crazy durability of tanks to the fact that it's future armor and no squishy humans inside to kill, just a chip buried in steel.

    And again I'd like to say that if these changes lead to some unit or technique being dominant, well thems the breaks because that's how it is in real war too. Part of the point of this is a kind of a thought experiment to see what war under these conditions would actually look like without humans painstakingly and arbitrarily manipulating things to make it play out a certain way.

    Also if a player considers some method cheap or unfair then they can simply refrain from using it or play on a higher difficulty to compensate for the option.

    I need to address bombers in some way. I'm thinking of making them drop the equivalent of t1 arty shells, at the very least.

    Compare the payloads and cost of stealth fighters and bombers:

    F-15:
    Cost - 30million
    Aircraft weight - 40-60klbs

    B-2 bomber:
    Cost - 60m
    Payload - 28klbs of ordnance

    What ratio of cost, bomber to fighter, would justify changing the bomber's attack to t1 arty drop? Seems the current cost ratio is fair about 2x1?

    But anyway, first things first. Instead of making fighters do less damage how about we just make their hit points match missile damage? Turn them all into glass cannons?
  20. bsergent

    bsergent Active Member

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