Rapid construction unit.

So basicly a builder that can say construct stuff at faster than normal speed. but to balance maybe have it drain x2 energy and mex or 1.5x. The idea came to mind from watching one of Zx's reps! when trying to take another planet having a unit to build up factories and defense's fast make it easyer since its hard to get much out when you 1st land. Its just an idea but just woundering if anyone thinks this is a good or bad idea.
For ..... reason explain

.....just use more fabricators? I don't really see the point, just adds more complication for no real benefit.

Mike

The problem is single unit transports.
As soon as you can transport multiple units quickly to another planet theres no reason to have a rapid-fabber there as you just send 10 fabbers over there.

edit: of course you can send 10 single unit transports , but a multi unit transporter is a much better solution IMHO.

werent advanced vehiclefabs like the fastest builders
aside from the comm?
anyway ... you need more build or productioncapacity?
as mike said: MOAR FABBERS!!!! AND PAINT EM RED!!

If we do end up with single unit transports, a builder that builds as fast or faster than the commander, but at a horrendous energy expense, might be a good idea.

yeah thats my point, single orbital transports dont seem to be enough imo.
Once you get to a planet your at a massive disadvantage if you try to take over it with a set up player on it.
Having a fabber than can quickly get up buildings would make it easyer.

Obviously for balance the unit must be very expensive to build and be somewhat punishing on energy n mass to use. But for a late game a fabber of some kind like this would be useful but not OP.

Then the question becomes is that a problem with not having a "better" Fabber, or that the current options for transporting units are insufficient?

Mike

An insta-fab bot would be a possible addition. Not faster, but instaneous with cooldown.
It can fabricate some structures instaneously, at horrendous energy cost. Hard to balance and rendered mostly obsolete by dropships/multi unit transport/mass teleporters/whatever will be added.

Hmm. A single, high powered construction unit that is excellent for planetary expansion....

I got it! How about we use a commander.

I think this problem will be alleviated when they get the interplanetary gates and the unit cannons operational. I don't really see a need for yet another fabber.

having an even more advance faber that is equivalent to some number of regular fabers could help the game's performance, as there wont be mass faber balls roaming around any more.

Commanders loss is (currently) game ender.
Use commander as first invasion unit on fortified enemy planet to build defenses against counter attack.
Seems legit.

If the Commander can't get a base started, how can you expect any other unit to do it? Building new bases is why the Commander exists.

That's what we call risk/reward

Wait a second.
You know theres an enemy base on that planet. Plus a huge lot of units and maybe defensive structures scattered around. Then theres a bunch of orbital fighters and aircraft patrolling. And maybe he has two nukes ready to go. Which ist kind of instagib for a comm.
And the best in terms of builing a beachhead up there we shall do is dropping the most important unit available in that mess?
So, as long as theres a nuke/bombers up it basically remains the same orbital war with fighter and laser spam to kill them. Or move a moon into orbit and nuke him. But once you have a moon there raining nukes, why invade the planet and not just bomb it to death?
Or not shoot a moon straight into the planet.

And bombers, bombers are nice. You basically cant land the comm when theres a halfway decent ammount of T2 bombers on that planet. The commander just cant build enought AA to protect him from a load of Hornets. Even though they arent that quick they still get from one side of the planet to the other in a timeframe thats much too short to set up AA.
The trick about that : You cant use the lasersat on Hornets.

I think the major point of invasion is that they can be set up much faster than a nukeball-moon or KEW and give you a chance to put pressure on your opponent quite fast.

How do I expect another unit to do it?
Land and - at huge cost- build the first structures, maybe even instaneously. Just a factory or two and some laser towers or heavy AA.
Now the unit is "used up" but the factories start to produce all kinds of units needed.
This happens on 3 or 4 spots on the planet simultaneously.
The commander would fail because he would just catch a nuke or two. Spread the attack and nukes loose some of their power against that growing bases.
And the only thing he can build for def is a rocket tower. When invading a planet, you have to get something that helps against smaller groups of Levelers or Hornets up in the time it takes the enemy to drive them over to you. Not much chance with a comm.
Of course a new beachhead should not be able to stop a well built deathball but has to resist small groups of units.
How much Hornets can a comm plus two or three AA towers survive? Not much I guess.

Nevertheless, since multiunit transports will hopefully make it into the game I consider it pretty much a non-issue. Just drop 4x10 fabbers and there we go.

At that point it is sort of obvious you can't build a beach head anymore. That's why so much depends on good, aggressive invasion options to keep the game moving.

For example, asteroids are mobile beach heads. They allow you to build a base and deliver it directly to an enemy world. Unit cannons let you deploy units before building on the ground. Teleports let you call in reinforcements, transports let you dump units on a planet with ease, and heavy assault units allow you to break a beachhead. Orbital bombardment can also play some support, but there's more fun to be had by dumping all your bots on the planet and duking it out.

The scenario you paint, to me, screams "Please hit me really really hard with an asteroid". The enemy is so well established on that planet that any attack on it would be doomed to failure. So whack it with a 'small' asteroid that obliterates their units but leaves most of the planet intact.

If you don't want to whack it with your asteroid, the plan is for it to be possible to instead manoeuvre an asteroid into orbit around the planet to use interplanetary nukes and unit cannons to rain down destruction on it.

Under no circumstances would you want to drop a Com on such a planet, and indeed why waste metal sending anything to its certain death?

The only planets you'll want to invade are ones where the enemy is not yet established and able to repel such attacks with ease. For everything else, you've got bigger, better tools in your toolkit to do the job.

Thats quite a small timeframe tbh. If theres just 3 astraeus, 3 advanced fabbers get some T2 facs up quiet fast. Invade with comm? Already very dangerous because all it takes is a handfull of Levlars to end it. The T1 units the com can initially build wont cut it.
Send over some fabbers - well worth the risk. Commander, I wouldnt do it.
And some T2 unitspam is not heavily foritfied but still extremely dangerous.
Even comm with some advanced fabbers is a bit risky, but if youve got adv fabs there, why send the comm? Send a levelerfor protection.

Invading with a commander doesnt make any sense, thats my whole point.

The state of "well established" is reached very fast if theres a decent ammount of T2 fabs involved.
Im really looking forward to multi unit transports, maybe that makes orbital more appealing to me.

Absolutely, yes. Massive ammount of units to rain in or teleport to that planet. Thats how I like an invasion, but no one right in his mind would send the Comm down there, thats what weve got fabbers for.

Just wanted to state that in many situations you can start a base with something else than a commander and really are way better off doing so.

Under the Current balance that isn't unreasonable, but we don't know exactly where things will go from here yet.

I'd much rather discuss how to make the commander more viable as a base builder, especially on new planets.

Mike

A stronger lathe would be a good start. The Commander has a hard enough time using the game's starting resources, never mind any attempt at using reclaim or tapping an economy that exists somewhere else.

The TA Commander had an 8x lathe. It was pretty important for building a base.