Please let community take over the balance.

Discussion in 'PA: TITANS: General Discussion' started by huangth, February 3, 2016.

  1. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    It has been a long time after the last released patch.
    And I think we are sure that the uber has no man power to change the game anymore.

    There are also some threads about the balance:
    https://forums.uberent.com/threads/so-now-what-competitive-balance-of-the-future.70825/
    https://forums.uberent.com/threads/new-balance-mod.70926/

    Compare with the balance mod,
    I prefer to let the community to adjust the balance due to several reasons.
    1. There are too many players who don't use the balance mod or even regular mods.
    2. The balance mod is unable to be applied in 1vs1 ranked game.
    3. The frequently varying balance can make the game alive.
      Player won't buy a dead game which is out of maintaining.
    I have no idea that it is possible or not to let the community take over the balance.
    Who can have the right to adjust the balance?
    Should other players have right to agree or disagree with each adjusting by vote?

    There are still many balance problems in PA:Titan.
    And I hope they can get some modifications.
    1. Zeus, it is both weak and overpower in some aspects.
      But I think it needs some nerf.
    2. Gas giant orbital rush.
      Current nukes are unable to target the gas giant anymore.
      Once a player loses the orbital fight on gas giant, there is no way to take back the gas giant.
    3. Some units are too rare because they are just too underpowered,
      such as typhoon, Wyrm, Hornet, and Mend.
    I think I don't need to mention all of the balance issues.
    We should focus on how to improve the balance of PA:Titan.
    Please let the community to take over the balance.
    May the PA:Titan stay healthy and keep going.
    stuart98 likes this.
  2. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Units aren't underpowered, bro. They are outdated by a unit that performs better in that role. Either give them a new role or make them better than the other unit.
    g0hstreaper likes this.
  3. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    Imo Titans has a pretty solid balance to be honest. Yes there are a few units that are a bit meh (Icarus and lob for example) but by and large it works well.
    To answer your points in quote;
    1. It has strengths and weaknesses. But the best way to counter the Zeus is to spam out air, particularly phoenix *see my latest 2v2v2v2 video for evidence of this*. This doesn't strike me as an issue with the Zeus exclusively, rather the way air works within the larger scope of PA. The best way to deal with it is to get more of it than your opponent..... or lure(general air force) them over storms. Storms imo are not a good answer to zeus.
    2. You can take back a gas giant, it's just a long and tedious... and costly process. You can get a bunch of helios, a large number of omegas and artemis'. You need to be mindful of the orbital RockPaperScissors with range/DPS/firepower etc. Artemis>Omegas/Anchors, Avengers>Artemis, Omegas>Anchors/Avengers
    3. Are they rare because they themselves are underpowered, or is it because other methods are more efficient? Yes you could argue that this y definition means they are underpowered, but imo those units do have good uses in particular situations and are the ideal way to deal with some scenarios. Hornets are good, but their tendency to move into range of static AA is the issue. Typhoons are a good way to attack from multiple directions if you're sieging a coastal base for example. I imagine they are also good at dealing with torpedo launcher turtles. Wyrms are great with angels for a precision strike or even to deal with a forward turret/artillery positions. Mends are good at healing t2 units and structures.
    So are they 'underpowered' or are they just useful in a more limited set of situations? One could however argue that by the time you have access to those units, you could have just won another way... but I'm not sure anyone has really bothered to test that properly yet in a proper 1v1 game for example. 2v2s and up are more likely going to give opportunities for the more specialised units.
    Greendolph, g0hstreaper and Murcanic like this.
  4. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Yea problem with Zeus its a big problem air vs AA balance. We got strong air unit, but current AA weak and work only against low HP air.
    I want to see expensive AA t2 bot unit with low ROF,big range and fast rockets.
  5. Murcanic

    Murcanic Well-Known Member

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    Nukes... Nukes solve almost every problem :)
    Greendolph likes this.
  6. g0hstreaper

    g0hstreaper Well-Known Member

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    If you want to make a separate balance mod go for it, no one is stopping you :)


    That being said I think titans is actually well rounded for how quickly it came out and I honestly dont thing you will see me using it because of the previously stated.
  7. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    what happened to "the game is terribly imba" "unit push op"....?
  8. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    G0hst's replying to a mods/balance thread, let's see if he read the OP to know what the issues we're talking about are...

    Aand... no he did not!

    G0hst, read the OP. For once.
  9. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Btw someone tried use Gil-e spam against Zeus?
  10. g0hstreaper

    g0hstreaper Well-Known Member

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    Stuart, it's another "The community needs to carry the game" thread which I remember you making quite a few threads as well. So before you again try to take another shot at me why not try using the few brain cells you have left and think about the growth/death of the community and what happens when a minority controls the majority.

    Biggest issue with this whole idea: not enough people for it. Like @wpmarshall said the game is generally quite balanced so the need for it is already low and the idea that we need another group like the Vanguard if you can even remember who they were paroling the forums/game balance you are absolutely loony or Exoduse (who blatantly hold a monopoly on who gets to play in worth while PA tournaments) the issue is you are putting a entire game under the control of a small minority of the community, no matter how good their intentions the group will always look out for it'self. While I will admit it was quite the trip for me to work with exodus team the idea that having a total of 8 people controlling the meta for another 1.5-2K people is insane and while uber was able to do it. They were also the company that made it so it was naturally in their favor to help everyone as it in-turn it helped themselves. Without a overruling company or non- internal community organization controlling the productivity it is only going to be as good as the self proclaimed community rulers make it. Which can honestly be good or bad but with how the Vanguards ran it and how the community has treated change I doubt any form of internal ruling is a good idea. I personally think PA needs to be sold or bough to another company that will be able to dictate how the game progresses and is developed.

    I said make your own because then HE as in the developer can make the game as he sees fit. Like your "balance" mods that have sat at the bottom of PAMM's list it will be something that people can enjoy when they want to but not something that is required by some group to have. This allows the freedom for @huangth to make what he believes it to be balances (Like air fabbers being able to build nukes for free because it counters dox rushing, permanently) and allows him to have fun in his modded version of the game without forcing others to have to rush t2 for anti nukes.
    Bsport likes this.
  11. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    @g0hstreaper To clarify, the vanguards didn't have 'control'. Their purpose was to facilitate communication between Uber and the community.
  12. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    It's important to view this from the perspective of uber.

    Imagine you run a game developer company and some random people on the internet you don't really know anything about want access to modify and push code through your official pipeline. I'm sure you can appreciate how reluctant they would be about creating issues for themselves from quality control, to brand management, to security, to contracts/compensation and IP.

    Especially when they already specifically created modding capability to do just what you are asking for :)
    Greendolph, huangth, cdrkf and 8 others like this.
  13. Nicb1

    Nicb1 Post Master General

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    The problem with community taking over balance as well is that not all of us necessarily agree with eachother about what direction the balance should go. For example you have people like stuart who want to see the game balance overhauled completely, then you have others like myself and i think elodea and slocke who would rather keep the overall balance similar with some stat tweaks here and there to make units more useful (Not changing their role entirely).

    So yeah big point of contention there between various community members in regards to what direction to take the game, this is why I have not bothered to change the balance in my own mods and built on what Uber has done so far.

    But yeah other than that there are a few other issues which have been brought up by the above users. Especially with what @elodea brought up above.
    elodea, g0hstreaper and wpmarshall like this.
  14. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I agree with you.
    The authority will become an issue, it is difficult for Uber to keep their server safe.
    Thus, the default balance parameters should only be adjusted by Uber rather than any other players.

    Please don't treat me as noob. :confused:
    I have been the uber rank player in 1 vs 1, and I don't want to mess the game.
    I use the dox to rush the enemy in early game, and I don't think the nuke should be free to counter dox.
    It is too ridiculous.

    The overall balance of PA:Titan is fine, I just hope some burnish and fine-tuning.
    The game can be better, isn't it?
  15. lordathon

    lordathon Active Member

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    Just one think: bring back Orbital Deep Space Radar! :p

    Seriously, give the balance role to a small group of player is not the way and a bad idea. Who have the capacity to say that is good for the community and the gameplay? No one, all players like some units and want to use it all time, so acces to balance can just be a big mistake for all others.

    But Uber need to do something, @wpmarshall most of the units work well but you have no counter for T2 vehicule spam leveler/sheller... Most of the time you will see the T2 vehicule and anything other. And that isn't fun to use only one T2 transition all time. T2 bot need a way to counter vehicule, especially sheller.

    But for this Uber need to wake up on work a little ;)

    Frenchenglish here! o/
    n00n likes this.
  16. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I can tell you how to counter the T2 leveler and sheller spam.

    You can spam T1 bot factories, and mass product the dox with boom bots.
    I personally like the ratio 1 dox with 5 boom bots after middle game and late game.
    T2 tanks have low ROF, and they create the overkill problem when dealing with bots.
    The metal of one T2 leveler can be used to build 12+ boom bots,
    and this amount of boom bots can beat the leveler easily.

    T2 bots are not the main unit for the ground force, they are support units for your T2 tanks.
    The slammer can be used when the enemy try to use the dox and boom bot to counter your T2 tanks.
    Gil-E sniper bot can protect your T2 tanks from the missile of the catapult.
    Since the T2 tanks are slow, catapult is quite tricky for pure T2 tanks.
    Of course, you can also spam the T1 bots to support your T2 tanks.
    Bluehawk is an unique unit which can target the orbital units or anchor.
    You can mix them into the ground units and clean the anchors when the army walks through.

    I think there is a food chain for PA ground units.
    Leveler > slammer > ant > dox > boom bot > leveler
    Last edited: February 4, 2016
    Greendolph likes this.
  17. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Don't forget that Slammers can move across water and have torpedos. They works on land+sea maps where leveler spam just useless. Same for Locusts. Bots perform their task pretty well, but they need in more micro.

    Leveler just slighty OP i think. Its why t2 bots looks not good againts it. Sheller not a big problem in most part games.
  18. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    The torpedo of slammer can be used to kill the commander which camp under a small lake.
    For the planet with large water area, naval units are much more useful.

    In my opinion, the leveler is fine.
    It creates the overkill in almost anytime, unless it is shooting the enemy building or T2 tanks.

    Using micro to beat the T2 tanks by T2 bots, I feel that it is impractical.
    I feel that using eco and mass production with the concept of in-game food chain can beat the opponents more efficiently.
    Since T2 bot are support units, I only use them when I need them.
    In most cases, I build T2 vehicle factory first rather than T2 bot factory first.
    However, when my opponent spams too many bot factories, I go T2 bot factory first.
    T2 tanks don't provide too much advantage when dealing with the T1 bots.
    Last edited: February 4, 2016
  19. lordathon

    lordathon Active Member

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    Come on, sheller will just make BIG holes into your bot army (notice T1 or T2), then...Vanguard will finish the rest of you dox/boombot. And if you have T2 vehicle, you have T1 => inferno work well against boombot too and bolo against dox.
  20. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I agree bolo (ant) can counter dox.
    But some player may focus on leveler and have not enough bolo.

    I once though vanguard has the area effect which can counter the boom bot, but I find out that I was wrong.
    Vanguard can't counter the boom bot, its Rof is too low (2 seconds per shoot).
    And the most frustrating thing is that the area effect of vanguard usually only takes out few dox or boom bot.
    To counter the boom bot, I think the inferno works better than vanguard.

    About the sheller, I feel it works well against the player who have more dox than boom bot.
    Sometime, the sheller spam with some micros can even counter the levelers.
    However, to counter the player who uses a lot of boom bots, sheller doesn't make significant help.

    The conclusion is that players can't only depend on T2 vehicles.
    It is still necessary to mix other units into the T2 vehicles,
    such as T1 tanks and bots, or even T2 bots.
    Last edited: February 4, 2016

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