Please...Fix these gamebreaking issues.

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by KrisIsHidden, January 24, 2014.

  1. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    1) Ai Difficulty Settings --> Need implementation currently the AI is too overpowered, makes the game quite frustrating rather then fun. Me and my peers have won games but its only when we rush and harass the AI we bought the game as the successor for TA, yet currently its simply frustrating and stressful due to the AI's unfair play style. The AI make the game just simply put...not enjoyable.
    2)Nuclear Launch Warning --> Not knowing when a nuke is fired or when your anti nukes fire while trying to micro manage every single thing cause the AI is too over powered and has already expanded across the map simply makes the game even more disappointing.
    3) Metal Extractor Limit --> there needs to be a way to reduce the amount of metal extractors on a planet, the fact that there is 50 on every single planet unless its a mini asteroid or moon is down right crazy. The AI simply just needs to expand across the globe and mass units and you instantly loose, Lesser income spots = more balanced expansion and that brings an enjoyable game.

    The game has potential but its current state is just upsetting as it's supposedly in Beta yet it has a broken AI. Please fix this by adding in difficulty levels or some way to dumb down the AI, and we will try playing the game again.

    I will appreciate the feedback and hopefully you can fix this, new players shouldn't have to look online and do research on how to fight against the AI. Anyways best of luck and see you when its fixed. :)
  2. greendiamond

    greendiamond Active Member

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    these sound like personal problems

    although there is alot of argument for a nuclear missile warning siren that goes off if there is a nuke flying within your feild of vision
    zweistein000 likes this.
  3. mkrater

    mkrater Uber Alumni

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    You should be able to adjust the AI levels in the Lobby. If you set it at 0, the AI Commander will basically just stand there.
    The team is still working on the UI so hopefully adjusting the AI difficulty in the future will be much easier. :)
  4. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    Its not personal if its affecting multiple people. These are issues that need to be corrected, if the game is to be enjoyable.

    And changing the AI income rate doesn't do anything on all our games, they play the same.
  5. BradNicholson

    BradNicholson Uber Employee Uber Alumni

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    Mike's always working on the AI, and it will continue to grow and evolve as we fill out the full unit roster.
  6. Slamz

    Slamz Well-Known Member

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    If you are losing to the AI, there is something fundamentally wrong with your approach to the game and you will probably lose quite a lot of online games. "Expanding and taking over the map" is exactly what the good players do, and they will do it even better than the AI, and they will crush you with far more coordinated efforts than the AI uses.

    If you can't stop the AI from expanding, you certainly won't be able to stop me. Rather than toning down the AI, my advice is to learn how to beat it consistently. You'll be a better player for it.
    zweistein000 likes this.
  7. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    TO Slamz: I shouldn't as the consumer and the player change the way I play games for it to be enjoyable, its only logical, I should be able to play the RTS game as it was intended and enjoy it even if a suck at it there should be a level for me to progress. Me and my friends dont even play online multilayer we prefer Lan and coop games vs the AI, it's what we always have enjoyed.
    Building defenses, making an army then expanding, its what we do, but unfortunately the AI is too fast for us to react and is over-powered, When you only isolate parts of the game and use those to your advantage you lose out on the immerse experience it becomes a chore rather then an enjoyable game. You should be able to do everything and enjoy it rather then dealing with the AI that is currently implemented.

    TO BradNicholson, I thank you for your response, I look forward to the improvements and hopefully in the future customization settings to make the game enjoyable.

    TO Mkrater, I've tried setting it at .1 and still we encounter the same AI playstyles, and then i tried .01 and the same thing was the result, an AI that was over powered. Either it may not be working correctly for us or I'm just not sure why its there.

    Thanks for the quick response and I still am hopeful for the result of your efforts.
    Last edited: January 24, 2014
  8. greendiamond

    greendiamond Active Member

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    yes but this is a beta just be thankful you have graphic options most betas dont have those fleshed out till near release everything will come in time
  9. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    I understand that as well, And i do have the patience to wait for change, Just the fact that immediately it was difficult at the start for new players turned quite a few people off, it shouldn't be like that if your looking to captivate or impress new players to your game, it should immerse them in the game play and have them wanting more. I have seen quite a few successful Beta's that gave the players that enjoyment, I am sorry to say but i was just left with disappointment with the current state of the game available now. I hope they fix the AI and allow levels for more players soon to make sure not to devoid players of what could be an amazing game.
  10. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Personal problems are a pretty negative way to describe it.

    First off, there is an AI difficulty setting. Set their "economy scale" found at the bottom left hand side of pregame lobby to 0, and they don't get any metal or energy from commander or structures, period. This is sandbox mode. Set it to 1, and they get x1 everything, the normal rate. Set it to .5, they get half, easy enough to handle. Set it to 3, they get triple, so they will have everything faster and also pump units faster.

    Second off, the concept of the game is to expand across all a planet's metal points. This isn't C&C, god bless that game and check out my signature, but this is designed to be a little different, I think the design is newer and unique. It isn't unfair to play either really, you have UI tools to help you play this way. Imagine if Red Alert 3 had build queues, where in a minute you could set up what order of structures to build and where they unpack at. You could build a base the first minute of a game, and as it slowly builds do anything else you want. That is the principle in this new concept in PA.

    You could play a game against a Eco Scale 1 AI and watch how they built. Click the "replay" button after-game. It is glitchy but you get a general idea.

    So just get used to playing it a bit, you might like it more than the ones you've played before. I suggest start out with your commander, order him to build 2 metal extractors and 2 power plants, then a factory, then continue to build a line of power and metal remembering that he walks slow so don't space anything too far, just build the structures in a close line. Tip: It helps to build slightly more power than metal, 2 pgens for a mex at times. Then, by time you gave him orders to build about 10 mex and 16 power plants, he should be done with his first 2 and first factory. Take that factory, build 8 fabricators, and send them on 2-4 projects farther away to build extractors and powerplants. The more space you cover, the better, doesn't matter if they are densely covered because unoccupied space is just travel time if attacked and forced to fall back. Consider building a scout or 4 and send them in different directions until you uncover enemy locations. If you have spare, check if the enemy has branched out anywhere themselves. You then have a choice upon establishment of that bit of economy.

    You COULD build 3-4 vehicle factories, possibly 2 locations with 3-4 vehicle factories, possibly 1 bot factory with your vehicle factories. Have 1 fabber assist each factory, have 3 factories build hundreds of pounders and 1 build spinners. That bot factory can be used for infantry or medics. When you have 30+ pounders, order spinners to assist a far-back pounder so they follow behind, order any medics to assist amongst the pounders, and select all of ONLY the pounders, and order the pounders ahead while the other units naturally follow behind. Find a line through the enemy base and stomp through it. Try to aim for metal spots the most, and if you can secure from the enemy a row of metal spots without artillery it is advised to fabricate artillery and turrets on it and then cover them in your own metal extractors and powerplants. "Raiding".

    You COULD build distant defense points, try to hug the enemy perimeter if you can find it and build a pelter and a double barrel laser defence and a wall-block built between the enemy base and the turret, then radar and missile turret and a few more lasers and walls and pelters. Continue to build them at an angle and ever closer to the enemy base, slowly digging into their perimeter with cannonfire "Pelter Creep"

    You COULD build a fast t2 if you aren't being attacked. The risk is, if you are attacked you probably won't have any way to defend it. The reward is, if you get a t2 bot factory you can get gil-e sniper-bots, and lining those at the edge of your outer outposts will grind armies, especially assisted with walls and/or turrets. If you can find the enemy commander, t2 bombers pack a strong enough punch to kill one. With t2, you can establish higher economy, maybe make up production of army with double-production by setting up 10 factories and pumping out heavily. You can set up holkins and catapults. You can set up nukes. "T2 Rush"

    Really, levelers used to be the go to t2 unit, but with t1 tanks given so much this last update and t2 bots given the only hitscan longrange weapon so far, the balance changed. Either way, thats vaguely how the game is played. "Cover as much area as possible", so you have access to those distant metal points and deny enemy metal points.
    jebradec likes this.
  11. nofear1299

    nofear1299 Active Member

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    Thing is, the economy scaling options do change the difficulty. Where you would get spammed at 5 mins for example with 1x eco, you will get spammed at 10 minutes. I've honestly found the AI to be quite useless at 0.5 scale, even 0.8. 1x they still aren't too bad without spamming too much. And I am far from pro, I've only had a few games. Maybe 30 maximum. The ai does just like to come at you from different angles - that's the thing with a spherical map. You can't think in 2 directions anymore. PA will test you that way. As soon as you can open your thinking to that the enemy can come from any direction then it becomes easier. The trick is foresight which comes from radar and scouting. Area patrol helps with that (make one fac continuously spam scout planes and area patrol) Use the camera anchor tools to make sure it's easy to find their base.

    And no offence to Sorian, you and your evil Forged Alliance AI. I am excited to see it when it is fully fleshed out, it's coming along nicely. Helped my learning curve with this:D
  12. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    Again like i stated before Your stating that the game is directly played a certain way, but what about the creativity to play it our own way and explore our own unique strategies, being forced into one direct strategy every single time will only make the game simply mainstream and wont bring any enjoyment to those who wish for a game with multiple ways to play the game rather that constant rapid expansion, where is the enjoyment in making a base? Where is the enjoyment in fending off an attack and then slowly expanding around the map making more bases, increasing the length of the game and allowing for more battles and more victories to take place. The concept you speak of is fast paced games that offer little to no enjoyment to those who wish for a strategy game not only about "rapid expansion" but that offer in depth game play that allows the players to do whatever they wish and still have a chance at victory.

    Also your giving me a guide on how i "should" be playing the game, and that is exactly the problem at hand.
  13. nofear1299

    nofear1299 Active Member

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    Thing is I can guarantee you could do that though. You just need to send a few raiding parties out to stifle the AIs expansion. You could turtle up, fend them off and slowly expanding. Point is - to grow your eco you are forced to expand. It's the name of the game - you can not reasonably expect to survive on 5/6 mexes at your spawn point. You need the eco. Get greedy, take all the mexes you can.
  14. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Well, yes, and no. I mean, in some RTS games, some strategies are completely not going to work at all. In some games, rushes are so strong that you can't camp or turtle. Other games, turtles are too strong you can't just throw armies at them. Really, that's the difference in Starcraft and Supreme Commander 2. Other games, you build dense little bases, others you build widespread outposts. C&C, you really can't build that spread out, structure costs are too high to spend unless building there has economic gain (ore or tiberium). Here, you can't build just one small little area, same reason, the economic dependencies are spread out so you have to go collect them.

    Besides that, there is variety to play still, one can still turtle to a degree, and one can still rush. As long as one establishes "economy", which is fairly unavoidable that you have to do some expanding.

    It is just basically saying, you can't build factories without building not a single metal extractor or power generator at all.

    Anyway, if you aren't arguing the actual direction of the game entirely, and possibly just the "extremeness" of the game, then that is a valid arguement, that "spawn" metalpoints need to be 2/3 the metal on a planet and "spread out" metal doesn't need to be so abundant, or that metal in general doesn't need to be so ample. People argue those. Generally, that concept lowers the massive emphasis on spreading out or losing, but doesn't change game direction.
  15. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    Again if their was an option to limit the amount of metal points there would be a chance of enjoyment for those who like to gradually expand to take their time and not be rushed into things, some people want to enjoy a game not be forced to rapidly expand and get "greedy" sometimes slow expansion allows as i said earlier a more in depth experience.
  16. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    See star craft and Supreme commander 2 both had a balance in base expansion and AI expansion, They themselves have a solid game play base and you can literally do any strategy you like in either game, I loved both of those games including command and conquer because they don't limit players creativity. I find that you too say it is the point of the game to focus on rapid expansion, well again being forced into doing something as the player. Had that have been said at the start instead of saying it was a soul successor to TA, maybe people would have had different ideas about supporting the game? But they devs themselves said it was a successor to the past games and it would bring that core game play back and revolutionize it. So far everyone seems to say I'm playing the game "wrong" but in an RTS you should be able to use any strategy you like and still have a chance at victory that is the beauty of strategy, being stuck in a single route only leaves an empty void for creativity, and frustration and boredom follow.
  17. nofear1299

    nofear1299 Active Member

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    I understand your point, but I disagree with limiting the mass points. I think it is 6 mass for every T1 mex. You need the mexes to actually keep up to a reasonable level of production (with the balance as it still stands).

    Just because you send fabbers out to claim mexes doesn't mean you have to spread your base out. Send little parties of 2 fabbers plus a couple dox and just send them on mex runs then slowly expand your main.

    Set your eco to 2x and the AI to 1/0.5x and that'll help your problem. Area commands are your friend, it doesn't take too much effort to send a little build/raiding party to just build mexes.
  18. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    You can play the way you wish, but not everyone enjoys that way I am just simply stating the obvious. You may enjoy the rapid expansion ideal. For me and friends i play with we enjoy a lengthy game that lasts awhile where you can expand over the map make bases and keep expanding, take over new worlds and utilize every option available in the game. Currently, every game is finished far before you can take a new planet over since its just way too fast paced, its as if they don't give the players enough time to fully utilize every option in the game. That is my main point, we should have the choice to limit metal points on a planet, the choice to choose the difficulty of the AI the choice to have fast paced games or slower games based off the AI we choose. These are clearly not implemented, yet are impediment in mostly every RTS that has been designed.
  19. nofear1299

    nofear1299 Active Member

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    You CAN turtle though. Walls are incredibly cheap for the damage sinks they are. Static def is not prohibitively expensive. There are still multiple strategies and as the game gets closer to release there will be more options.

    Turtle up and get nukes, get off planet. There's lots. Rush t2 air.

    The AI is ridiculously slow at 0.5 res.

    Try a game with 2x res and the ai with 0.5.
  20. KrisIsHidden

    KrisIsHidden New Member

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    as i stated earlier the Res system does not function correctly, I have tried putting the AI at .01 Res and they still function as if they had 1 res income. And yes i agree walls are an excellent addition, yet they cant help against 500 Tanks.

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