I watched the Livestream on Friday, and I gotta admit, there was a surprising effect that did concern me. The Strategic Zoom was really not as effective when it seems like more than half the map is hidden behind the curvature of the planet. Even if you zoom out all the way, you can't see a particularly large portion of the battlefield at once. This is quite hampering as to the effectiveness of this feature.
I didn't really have a problem telling what was going on either. You can't see the whole thing at once but it doesn't seem to be getting in the way at all.
Part of the problem was not being in control of the view yourself. I think that you'll be able to have a much better overview if you're playing yourself. If you know what the strategic icons mean, all you need is one quick rotation around the planet to have all the info you need.
Zoom in on sun gets you back to vision of all Planets zoom in on one planet direct to planetview zoom in on one planet in all_planetview brings you back to planetview just a suggestion
I agree, this can be a hindrance when setting up battle plans, scouting, or just trying to see the big picture all at once. A minimap of somekind is nearly essential, at least on a planet-by-planet basis where combat planning and strategy are essential. I hope the team has a plan to deal with this instead of having to have two windows open in order to view the front and back of the globe.
I don't think it'll be a big deal, at worst you're seeing half the map. Play an old RTS and you either didn't have a minimap or an incomplete one while only seeing a very small screen's worth of information.
...but i didnt invest my money into creating an old game. i invested in the opportunity to help be a part of the creation a better game for tomorrow. I dont consider eliminating a necessary tool (like a minimap) a leap forward in game development and thus i will make efforts to persuade other investors to back the claim and offer solutions to the problem. Only having visibility of (at best) 50% of the current globe your are viewing is unacceptable. A minimap (at least for the planetary level) should be included out the gate.
Minimaps are not "necessary". You will not expire on the spot if they are absent. Nor will the game break and refuse to run. Maybe you'll learn a new way of playing rather than relying on such a "gamey" HUD element. Please stop saying minimaps are "necessary" unless you have PROOF that games are objectively and substantially BETTER for including them. I find it tragically funny that you say you want to fund a new game, while you claim to be entirely reliant on a HUD element that's older than dirt. You want innovation... as long as they don't actually do anything new. ... Do you see the irony?
I didn't say that. I said you will get along fine without seeing the entire map in a single perspective.
Fair enough, but the game i wish to play has such archaic elements and therefore i shall ask for them. If you change the map, shouldn't you also adapt the fundamental tools which you use to lay the foundation of your plan? The risk UBER runs without incorporating such features is a very stiff learning curve. You may be fine with that, but know that others may not be. As far as "GAMEY HUD elements", i personally have TOPSECRET security clearance for the US ARMY. I assure you as dated as maps are, we still use them, and they are the exact reason i require the clearance i have. They're that important to people, and countries. Please stop using toilets and urinals of all kinds and locations until you can substantiate their usefulness. Im not going to tell you what is useful for you. Please dont tell me what i wish to have included in the game i funded. Im not barking demands from a soapbox, i am merely attempting to get my point across that i would like a minimap since i am entitled that opinion and can also provide such feedback here, in these forums, where my suggestions should be safe from ridicule. We are all collectively trying to build an awesome game together, lets put forth ideas instead of tearing them down. Fact is, it doesnt matter if we agree or disagree. I would like the minimap option available so that i can manage my game better. If you dont need this option, then you do not have to use it, or even promote it. As far as providing PROOF that it will make it better, review the first combat footage... homie got attacked and wasnt even aware that an army was moving toward him. That would never happen to an equally aware player in TA or SC or SCFA or SC2. I dont wish to spin the globe every couple of minutes to review any potential threats. I never laid claim that i was reliant upon anything. Im simply asking for a tool to not be thrown out of the toolbox simply because Mavor doesnt prescribe to an idea. I agree a minimap in the traditional sense doesnt work: how do you put a galaxy in a minimap? you cant! but at the planetary level, i see great importance and i dont wish to simply let it go. I see the irony in the statement above, but only because of your context. I could also say something like: why would you build house with bricks? -or- why are you cooking with fire? Granted these are old tools made from old material, but their importance and versatility is what i dont wish to lose. I mean no disrespect Nanolathe, only to answer your questions and provide a sufficient response. My question for you though, if you dont care about the minimap one way or the other, why so much opposition for it? If anyone didnt want this feature, in what way would having it make this game unplayable for you?
perhaps... i guess we'll have to see how well this all works out for everyone when they are controlling 400+ planets and waging war on another 20+ worlds. I understood your point Veta, im not saying it is impossible, just saying i would rather not have to try. SC made the game awesome for the strategic zoom. Now i feel that we're taking a step backward with strategic zoom but only 50% the viewable area. i want to bring light to an issue that im in fear of: Time Consumption. With a Minimap, a user can order his troops around the globe in two clicks: [highlight] + [order] without a minimap: [highlight] + [scroll to destination] + [order] + [scroll to origin] it now can take twice as long (or longer) to issue commands. We should be making efforts to reduce the complexity, minimize the learning curve, minimize required management time, and do so without eliminating any fun.
Who said that I don't "care" about the minimap enough to despise it? I know I never did. I hate the minimap. It's distracting. I turn it off in SupCom and I'd turn it off in other games if I could use Strategic Zoom in them instead. Oh, and don't pull the "...game I funded..." crap. I funded it too and I'm not going around with some sense of entitlement of this or that feature "Needing" to be in the game while providing nothing except "But that's what I'm used to" as an argument. No disrespect, but minimaps are not needed. Wanted, perhaps... but far from needed. I could quotesnipe your post and pick it apart but I consider it bad form. One thing that stood out to me is the point you brought up about the US army and maps. The US army can use maps all it likes. They're not playing pool with planets.
Once again, I agree that we need a "minimap" or whatever tool that enable us to see the whole planet at a glance. On a gameplay point of view, in a modern RTS game, it makes absolutely no sense to have the player scroll all over the map all the time just to check that everything is okay. You will spend more time scrolling (and possibly puking) than planning. I must confess I am deeply worried with Uber's silence on this issue which has been raised dozens of times. I see several possible explanations for such a silence : - somehow they know this won't be a problem despite what many of us think ; - they have an innovative solution which they don't want to talk about yet; - they are unaware of this concern or don't pay enough attention to it; - they know it will be a major issue with the game and wished it was 2D maps instead of planets but they realised it too late cause hey, the game is "Planetary Annihilation" and they just can't betray the promotional video and get back to a single-field "2D RTS". Even if this means releasing a game people find less playable than old RTS games. Please Uber, tell us exactly what your vision is on this issue.
Yes the game is going to need a mini map or some form of mini map. I however do no think that it is really something to worry about or discuss at this point. As the footage we have seen is only pre-alpha, uber is not going to go all this way to just not implement some way of monitoring everything that is going on
This is not true. Read the forums, you'll have alerts, hotkeys, split screens etc. They say you won't need the minimap so stop shitting bricks until you have actually played the game and can raise some legitimate concerns. Also I can guarantee you there will be multiple people who make minimap mods you can choose from.
I didnt say that you had, but you just answered yourself anyway...so, im not sure why you are asking me this. I never said "needed" which you so elaquently mis-quoted for me. i said "game i wished to play" and therefore "i shall ask for them". I am no more entitled to my opinion than you are yours. Please understand it is not my intention to convince you that you are wrong, only to ask "why am i wrong?". I even went to the extent to say that "im not making demands, just offering suggestions". I dont understand your combative nature. im trying to offer suggestions to something i am enthusiastic about. You should try it sometime. You may find yourself mis-quoting people less often. Mis-quoting someone is even more disrespectful. Discussion often starts with listening. I am willing to discuss anything with you, but i will not argue with anyone. I am open to hearing your thoughts as to why a minimap should not be included in the game. But you have not provided any other evidence to support your statement other than "i hate the Minimap, it's distracting". Youre right, they're planning invasions. I could be wrong, but i think they may have used maps when planning such invasions. AND, as it just so happens that i will also be planning invasions... I have entertained this idea, and have provided my input. Unless there is any other revelations within this topic i doubt i will cover it again. Within your response you never included a reason why a minimap is NOT essential or how it would interfere with the game on a fundamental gameplay level. So i assume your input in its entirety is "I hate Minimaps." This simply is not an answer that will work for me.
I wouldn't be so sure as you are zaphodx. We've not information at this point as to the viability of "user created" minimap HUD elements. Oh, and since you invited me to treign, Quotesniping ahoy! You inferred that I had no opinion on minimaps plain and simple and then you seem confused when I tell you that I do indeed have an opinion on them. It seems you are unable to grasp what you wrote in your own post, let alone what I've posted. I never misquoted squat. You said minimaps are "necessary". "Needed" is a synonym to "Necessary" If English is not your native language I'll forgive you here... but now you know, so don't make the same mistake again. Firstly, assumptions are dangerous things. Without an informed baseline from which to base an assumption off of you are doomed to assume incorrectly... as you have, several times in fact. Secondly I see no reason to use a minimap when the strategic zoom is equally, and I would argue, more functional. An adjustable fidelity of zoom level and a reduction in HUD clutter would be two very strong arguments against the inclusion of a minimap, if strategic zoom is present... which it is. The basis for my argument is very much the same argument Neutrino has stated on multiple occasions; "Why bother with minimaps when you have Strategic Zoom?" (I'm paraphrasing there, but it's the general gist.) That sounds like a personal problem. Who says you're supposed to? Seriously though it's just the style in which I post. This is an intellectual debate, is it not? Or at least it's supposed to be. I try not to get tied to convention. I'm very scientific in my methods. Just because minimaps are used in every other RTS doesn't mean they are necessary in this one. Prove that it's necessary and I'll change my view. Fail to prove it and I'll pass off your comments as mere opinion. It is your opinion that minimaps are "necessary". I see no proof to that claim. --- (Ergh. I hate quotesniping. It looks ugly and it leads to uglier exchanges as all you do is pick apart someone's argument piece by piece. I'm not doing that again in a hurry.)
I've said this before, but what problem does a mini map actually solve? And why is it being touted as essential if it fails by its very nature to address any of the issues of a multi-planetary environment? Namely, if it's a concern that you have to zoom, scroll, click to give an order on a sphere, it is also a concern to zoom, scroll, click between two spheres. Wouldn't a better solution involve solving the problem for both scenarios?
