Nine Questions from a New Player

Hi! I'm totally a so-called "herp derp" new player - I don't believe in pussyfooting around in the single player mode. I did the tutorial once and then jumped right into the crucible!

I've spent some days quietly learning the basic facts of life while trying to contribute to my team... Upgrading other people's turrets instead of choosing the type, trying to shoot enemy bots and turrets more than their players, figuring out what that shield icon on the two life bars on the bottom left mean, etc.

Now that I have learned the easy lessons like, "when the moneyball is down you can shoot it," "slams are good against the invisible guys," and "I guess once in a while, if you really must, it's okay to use your minigun," I feel like it's time to ask some of the questions that it would take me longer to figure out on my own.

I have many such questions, here are the most burning ones. Grab any aspect here and run with it, I appreciate any input you have. I've bolded the questions so you can skim them without reading all the jabba jabba and focus on one you like.


QUESTION 1: Can someone explain, in great detail, mortar physics/damage to me?

I am so noob that I gold speed and main mortar, and use minigun maybe 20% of the time. So I want to know more about my favorite weapon.

I have already figured out how important it is to realize that the mortar comes out of you low and to the right, which is critical for shooting down from a ledge (easy to your left, more difficult to your right), hitting anything not a mile away, shooting around/over/through cover, and properly angling bank shots.

What I'm most curious about is the effect of the mortar's midair split.

At max passive it splits into three projectiles if it is in the air long enough. Imagine hitting a target right on the cusp of that split: if it hits before the split there is 1 hit. A single frame later and it's 3. What is the damage difference?

I thought, can it be that this one inch means triple damage?? If so that would be a HUGE fact of mortaring life - the use of the entire weapon would revolve around it. But my experiments say no. I shot the enemy moneyball right on the cusp, and when it was a single ca-ching I made $3. One step back and it was a triple ca-ching sound, with $4 to my pocket. So I guess it's a 33% increase, roughly because rounding is probably involved with such low numbers.

But now I'm wondering what the effect of upgrades are. If I had a friend, I would make him stand there in gold armored tank gear, and I would count the hits to kill him: no upgrade, 1 upgrade single, 1 upgrade double, 2 upgrade single, 2 upgrade triple.

I also wonder about the splash. If the pre-split single hit is only 25% less powerful than the sum of all three post-split hits, then that one pre-split projectile is much more powerful than a single one of the post-split projectiles. Is that also true of the splash? Maybe the upgrade "spreads out" the damage more than it increases it, creating a larger but less potent splash zone.

Not that I would stop upgrading, because honestly the minigun is occasionally extremely powerful, although I do not like to use it very much because of its myopia-inducing tarfootedness.


QUESTION 2: Is there a guide to pushing a lane?

Am I doing it wrong? I get steppin' up the left side, say. Nobody and nothing so I keep going. Then I see my bots. On the other side are their bots, and often just beyond that you will find enemy players. So I stop advancing (tho DON'T stop moving) and I shell the bejeebus out of the enemy bots, my bots, the surrounding area, with the occasional moonball toward the enemy main or where those pesky snipers like to hang out. If someone comes to stop me, I guess I might have to fight them, but hopefully I can just ignore them somehow. Often they are a bit battered by coming through my spamzone and teammates do the dirty work for me.

Should I manage to push my bots all the way the enemy base, I will shell their turrets down. (Actually, I shell the turrrets even over the last wave of enemy bots if I can.) Should I survive even that hurculean endeavor, I will attempt to "apply pressure" to their spawn area, which means shooting people and stuff. I guess.

If the moneyball is down I go shoot it with the minigun.

But is there a better approach?

This question is related to my next one...


QUESTION 3: Why does that guy keep saying "MOVE IN?"

There's some fellow on the mic on the server I've been playing on. I think he's trying to help, but I'm not sure I understand him.

When he says, "Move in! Move in! I said MOVE IN YOU $##$@ $#@!! $#@!$@# RETARDS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU WHY WON'T YOU MOVE IN???" what is he talking about?

Is he suggesting that I should run past the enemy botline? Past the enemy players? Past the enemy turrets? To dance beneath the light of their disco ball? Don't I have to progressively smash those things along the way?

Maybe not!

Being completely new, I experimented with his idea of just moving in, but honestly I have had little success. For example, on that map with the flying island in the middle with the jumpy pads, I paid my $50 to jump to the island, and then jump back up to the enemy base, bypassing all of their bots. The first time I died in about 2 seconds to a rocket turret, but even on future attempts when I did manage to live, land, and post up behind cover, it was not that effective.

I also tried running past the bots and trying to shoot their turrets right away. I am sad to report that several times I was killed by a black jack while trying to evade fire from enemy pros that swarmed me in triplicate.

Maybe I just suck at this game still, and with proper skill I would kill them all? Can you help me to understand his advice? He's quite emphatic about it and better than me, so he must be on to something.


QUESTION 4: How important is the Annihilator?

This thing kills all the bots on the map, which is more than I can say for myself. Fortunately, it respawns less quickly or I'd be out of a job. Are good players aware of how much time is left on the annihilator countdown? Is there something awesome I should do when the teammate hits it? Like MOVE IN maybe? What if an enemy hits it? Should I MOVE OUT and go camp my own moneyball?

Leading me to....


QUESTION 5: When should I play staunch defender?

Maybe you have experienced this. Sometimes it happens that at the beginning of the game, you herpa derp your way on down the map and kill a couple of slims and maybe a black jack, and smile on your bots. Then some unholy tripleteam comes down on you like thunder and you're back in the spawn room. By the time you walk out, there's a firebase, a gunner, and an overhealed tank rushing you. Manning up to take them down, you skitter back to mortar them from behind a pillar, when you get sniped in the head. The game is soon over.

Ouch.

Lately, at the start of the match, I kind of don't go past half-field (MOVE IN!!) for the first minute or so, just so I can fall back and be defender man if this scenario starts to play out. I feel like if I have my feet planted and my wits about me, and I'm right by my friendly moneyball wall, I can slow down the opposition fairly well, even if they're better or outnumber me or are attacking from both sides.

Are there appropriate times in the midgame to run back and defend your moneyball area, and then NOT move forward even if there are no enemies immediately visible? For example, when the moneyball is down, when the other team just hit the annihilator, when you are just losing badly, etc?


QUESTION 6: How do moneyball shields get restored? Does even a single bullet reset some grand countdown all the way back to start? I'm trying to gauge when it's worth it to suicide for a guaranteed but tiny amount of damage against the moneyball.


QUESTION 7: Dear Gunners, how do you avoid minigun tunnel vision?

I'm always using the mortar, so I get to look around between shots. The other day I was shooting an enemy moneyball with the chaingun (because mortar does like zilch dmg to it) from their upper spawn ring and WOW it feels sooooo uncomfortable to be standing right in the heart of the enemy base, attracting the maximum possible attention, and NOT LOOKING AROUND!? The feeling became so great that I stoped shooting but left the chainer spinning, took a glance around, and then resumed firing. Several times.

If I made that a habit, would it be a good one or a bad one, and why? If good, would this habit apply in other scenarios?

QUESTION 8: What do you look at on the little map it shows for a few seconds when you respawn, and what do you do with that information?

QUESTION 9: Please tell me about a stimulus-reaction habit that you as an experienced player have, that I do not.


Thanks!

I'm not that familiar with the gunner, so skipping to question 3:

Not sure what the guy is talking about, but the game is all about pushing lanes, there is no benefit to going straight to the enemy's base unless their moneyball is already down, or your goal is to spawncamp. One thing I do see a lot, though, is players that stay around their own base and wait for the enemy to come to them. This is a poor tactic and it could be the guy was yelling at other's who weren't pushing.

4: Overall, the annihilator is a a very important tool, and a good player should definitely be aware of when it will be ready. Of course, if you've pushed the enemy back into their base then it doesn't do too much good, but it still makes since to hit it just to deny them of it. If you're pushed back into your base then it's a good tactic to try and sneak out and grab the annihilator under their nose.

5: If your moneyball is down, then yes, it makes since to stay home and protect it until it's back up. Other than that, unless it's near the end of the game, and your goal is to tough it out until overtime and make a mad rush for their ball, there isn't really any time you shouldn't be focused on pushing. At the beginning of the game I always like to try and get as much of a head start as possible and begin the opening conflict as close to their base as possible, but you don't want to recklessly charge forward into an uneven battle you won't win.

6: A single bit of damage will reset the time it takes for the moneyball to go up, so suiciding to make sure it stays down is definitely a valid and encouraged tactic.

8: This is a good time to see how the opposite lane is doing. See where the bots are, and make sure their not nearing your base. Also, you can make a mental note of where any pros and turrets are. One neat thing I've noticed is that on this map you can even make out a dashing cloaked assassin.

Ok so I will assume you play as the Gunner. This is where I tell you he is the worst class for pushing a lane. Reason, he is simply the wort bot destroyer. The Tank, imo, is the best lane pusher.

The Annihilator is very important whether you are trying to push into the enemy base or if you are trying to stop them form pushing into your base. Since enemy bots are the only way for your Moneyball's shields to go down dead bots means your shields stay up, shields staying up means they cannot take damage. The Annihilator is ready 3 minutes after the button is pressed, and 3 minutes into the match. Map control is key to winning in MNC and the Annihilator can help secure that. Even if your team is pushed into the enemy base it is always best to press the button just to deny the enemy team of it's use.

To make this easy, although easier with a team, in MNC the best defense is a great offense.

Yes, even a single bullet can prevent the shields from being restored. The Moneyball will have to take no damage for 30 seconds for the shields to restore.

What I look at are the bases defense, both ours and theirs. What do I do? Well that depends upon the class and the situation but usually, since I play Tank, I control the bots.

What? Sorry I am really drunk and all. I think most of what I typed doesn't even make sense. I will revise in a bit.

The most effective Supports I've seen wield the dual-mini, and know the map incredibly well. Counter to their name, I think Support plays best in an attacking role. Especially with the help of another pro.

A surprise Support jet-packing up or down from somewhere is far far scarier than an Assassin's grapple.

I'd assume that you mean just automatic responses people in particular have to a particular event occurring? I guess? If so...

Most of my "automatic reactions" occur whenever an assassin is cloaked around my area. As gunner I'll typically just jetpack a bunch and look like a retard for a couple seconds, either until I see them get too close under me or they leave. If they are stupid enough to run under me, then body slam it is. As assault, I tend to jetpack up in the air and charge away in a direction and look back at where the assassin was, and begin firing in that area. This is my response to most assassins that are threatening me in the area.

I also check ejector status -all the time-. I am addicted to them, and I believe everyone should be. For example, on Spunky Cola arena, a lot of supports tend to place turrets on the ground floor in the middle of the map. If you can get to either ejector, you can detonate it to take out the turret + a bunch of bots + get some enemy Pros kicked around. As assassin on Grenade III, my main goal is to try and get enemy Pros off the top ledges so I can use ejectors on them.

Whenever an annihilator goes off, I pray our team triggered it.

As assassin on any map, my automatic reaction is usually SERPENTINE! if I'm being shot at. Additionally, if I happen to grapple a difficult target that I still believe I can take out (such as a tank/assault), I will automatically slam smoke bomb as soon as the grapple is complete. Typically a good tank or assault will try and charge you straight out of grapple if they survive, and smoke bomb averts a majority of the damage + stops the grapple effect from the assault and the "knocked out" effect from the tank's level 3 charge.

As sniper, my main reaction (other than attempting to headshot enemies that appear ) is versus assassins as well. Unlike a lot of other people, I don't completely rely on traps. I rely more on the cloak sound than anything else. I use the traps as deterrents, but I purposely make them avoidable. Typically assassins will still pass through them, but instead of a crazed R lunge they dash or walk past the trap in order to get to you. This gives you a massive advantage. If you placed them right, they will be close enough that YOU can close the distance, and go for a grapple kill immediately. I find that relying on SMG + Grapple is a much better way to stay alive than trying to snipe some assassin caught in a freeze trap.

As tank, uh, spam death blossom if you hear assassins? Kind of noobish but a viable way to kick off anyone that's trying to grapple you...I also use his charge as a way to quickly escape and get around corners, since it continues to push you forward (momentum isn't really carried over like the assassins lunge), and you can easily turn around corners to cover. I'll do this if I'm taking a large majority of hits, like any sane person would do.

These are all I can think up right now. I'll try and think of some more later.

^ Huh? Don't you mean gunner? Anyway, most of the qeustions are answered here, so I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already.

Nevermind.

No, you just ninja'd me. I'ma edit that post.

Seriously didn't even realize the other guy was talking about the gunner, I guess I didn't read close enough, hahaa.

I just assumed because his first question was about the Gunner. :|

I was talking about Bulletmagnet's response. I figured the OP primarily wanted gunner information, but I decided to add in a bunch of other stuff too :/.

Haha, yeah, BulletMagnet threw us all a bit of a curveball there, but I get it now. I like his point about a gunner being even stronger when paired with another pro. Something I haven't experimented too much with yet is following somebody else around in a really focused way, and coming right back to them as soon as I respawn.

In so-called "Team" Fortress 2 I had a serious bone to pick with the developers over their absolute lack of any teamwork-helping features. They made it necessary to work as a team, but then did nothing to help make it possible. In my Tribes 2 days I could just waypoint a teammate that fascinated me and see their location as an icon on my HUD at all times. In TF2, if you tried to work with somebody else on offense, once you died you had to get on the mic all, "Where are you now? OK heading that way. I'm there but I don't see you, where are you now? How about now? And now??" And the rooms didn't even have names, so the answers to that simple question were often hilariously convoluted.

It's silly and obviously doesn't scale. Just imagine your whole team pairing off and trying to work like that! Such basic information should be communicated by the game, leaving the mic free for higher-level thoughts.

It's much less of an issue in MNC - at least, I think so so far. But if the game did give me the ability to waypoint a really strong vet on my team, I would experiment more with slavishly following them around as an apprentice without even asking. I'd provide some level of help while watching how they worked and learning.

People bemoan a lack of teamwork in pubs in general across all kinds of games, but this sort of one-sided teamwork where I decide I'm going to work with a guy whether he likes it or not is, in my opinion, an under-utilized solution that games could easily facilitate. Instead, they give you a mic and blame the players. Please.

Anyway, that was a tangent, and just to be clear, it's a frustration from other games, not a rage I've ever had about MNC so far. I'll eventually dedicate a few games to this type of follow-you-around play and see how it works out. Does anyone else do this?

Lot of other good stuff so far, too - thanks, guys!

Seems I need to pay attention to the annihilator a lot more. Do you guys swing by to check on it, or do you have like a kitchen timer set to 3 minutes that you hit when it goes off so you can always know? Also Zanarias points out I should be thinking about ejectors, too. That's something I completely don't do, so I'll experiment with them some more.

DeadStretch I do play Gunner for now. Pretty soon I'll start experimenting with some other classes, so don't hold back on non-Gunner comments. I think Tank lane pushing and Assault whatever-he-does are the two that I'll play with next. Eventually Support as well, though he seems like he's only good once you understand the flow of the game really well.

Regarding lane pushing... are there any good youtube videos or anything? Any class is fine.

Instead of following players I did the following thing: read up on readily available information about the game, started crossfire, used my set of skills I acquired over the years of gaming and evaluated how it applied.

Worked out, rarely face challenges.

I think by and large, gunner fits the role of pro slayer. Dual-mini's are deadly and should be upgraded as soon as possible. The mortar is a great secondary but I find "maining" your chain-gun will have a greater impact in the game. I pull out the mortar when A. Trying to finish off a kill around a corner B. Getting pros to back off of an area--deny them access and push them off of a corner C. Destroying turrets/occasionally helping clear out a crowd of bots.

You asked if anyone follows veteran players around. I try to surround myself with skilled players but I don't generally follow them to observe. I have youtube for that. Try watching a few successful games of a strong player in the class that you are interested in.

So, my suggestion is to look at tank or assassin if you want to spend all of your time in the lanes. If you'd like, you can check out my youtube channel. I play tank and gunner most of the time. I am by no means a master of the game at this point but I feel like I have a solid foundation and still improving just like yourself. I'm trying to work from basic elements of the game to the more advanced strategies as I go along with my commentary because many of my subs have never heard of MNC before. As far as my experience, I played for a couple weeks on the 360 and on the beta off and on since it began.

If you're interested in text guides, head on over to the 360 strategy and tactics forum. I highly recommend Im Hudson's tank guide.

Quick note: I'm not an exceptional gunner

the pre-split hit seems to be about as damaging as one post-split round, so giving them time to split in the air seems to double or even triple your damage. When you're fighting an enemy pro, the minigun is going to be a better choice at pretty much every engagement range. I usually save the mortar for shelling enemy bots and turrets (and occasionally spamming towards the enemy spawn)

That's a pretty solid lane push with a gunner. Shelling their latest wave of bots a few times (to get them into the red so your bots can finish them off) then switching to your minigun and going pro hunting would allow you to push your lane even more, since the other pro isn't there to damage your bots anymore. Also using the ejector hazards for ring outs is a nice way to keep your lane headed in the right direction, since it can get rid of pros and enemy bots, giving you plenty of money for a 50 gold investment.

It probably means he has taken out most (or at least some) of the enemy's turrets and wants you to push the lane as hard as you can, so the bots get to the moneyball and take it's shields down. As for your expirments rushing the enemy base, your mortar will outrange any turret, and will do a good job of taking the turrets out. Just be concious about where the enemy pros and bots are. Once you take out all the turrets near one lane, I'd recommend staying near the enemy bot spawn and mortaring enemy botwaves as they spawn- eventually your bots will take the lane back.

If you move in and see that the turrets inbetween you and the moneyball aren't down, he was probably talking to team mates in the other lane. Help him out by taking out your mortar and shelling turrets near your current location.

Annihilator is most useful when the other team is controlling both of the lanes, it's least useful when the enemy team's moneyball has it's shields down, but even then activating it is recommended because it prevents the other team from using it, and wiping out your bots.

Defense seems to be the easiest way to guarantee your base gets pushed frequently, which in turn results in losses. If you find your team has let a lane get pushed, try to sneak back behind enemy lines, and take out enemy bots as they're spawning, make sure to use ejectors, sure they cost money but they wipe a bot wave out really fast. It's easier as an assassin, but basically if you're at the point where bots are attacking the missile turret near the moneyball, you're going to need to do more than just kill the bots attacking that moneyball if you want to regain control.

I'm not sure on the exact mechanics, but anecdotal evidence suggests that you're on the right track.

If you're attacking a moneyball, then you've got an advantage because you know where the enemy is likely to be (right outside their spawn, on the ledge circling the moneyball) spend the 50 gold to activate a jump pad to get up there, and every now and then head up there with the minigun to mow down the enemy, then drop down and go back to unloading on the moneyball.

I try to see if we've got any turrets down, if they've got any turrets down, and which lane needs a good push more.

If you hear a cloak, start jumping. Even if you're positive that the cloak is from your team's assassin that just cloaked right in front of you, start jumping.

9. Start jumping when you hear the assassin cloak. Maybe hit your slam if it's really loud.

If you're fighting an enemy rockit turret (especially lvl 1) or jackbot, strafe and jump. If you time it right, you can dodge a lot of their projectiles.

GRAPPLE JUICED PROS. You won't kill them, and you'll probably die, but if they're juiced and nearby, odds are you may die anyway, and giving the enemy another kill is better than losing that level 3 turret. If you're a class with a throw, all the better.

At the very least, grappling will halt their momentum, and hopefully anybody nearby will start blasting them.

In regards to lane pushing or "moving in" as the guy mic spammed->

As the gunner you do your best work in the mid field of the map, basically anywhere between your money ball and the entrance to THEIR base. Gunners don't push in well as they are slow and have poor bot killing capacity.

The midfield is YOUR world as a gunner though, your all about "denial of territory" you are the most effective class at keeping a team pinned down in their base. Amazing gunners will have a ton of kills, but you only need to be a GOOD gunner, and the way to do that is to pepper the crap out of anyone trying to get around on the map. You'll get a ton of assists, and terrify/frustrate any player even thinking of crossing YOUR map. Push them to their doors, but leave the IN-enemy base work to the classes good at it. Park outside, spray the crap out of anything that comes out, and fire mortars in (you devastate turrets and drive defensive supports insane with healing duty) as well as providing an incredible amount of literal "cover fire" to the teammates you have trying to DO the "pushing in"

Your last particular perk is IF that ball does drop, THEN you can go in cause the gunner eats money ball health ALIVE, to a ludicrous extent when juiced too!

The coolest benefit of a gunner on your team, one i learned by seeing my roommate develop the idea on our 360 copy is that once you max out your 'black' skill (mortar/dual guns-> which should be first priority for cash, lvls 2 and 3 respectively) the gunners other abilities are SO secondary that he will sometimes neglect to buy them at all, instead being the cash cow provider for our turrets/annihilators/bouncers while the other classes are still trying to raise funds for their other abilities.

Hello, ricefrog, I think I played in the same server as you for quite a while in the past few days, I recognize the name. If I remember your name, that's typically a good thing (I forget the names of people who suck) so you must have something going for you. Anyway...9) the game sound is your best friend. A lot of thought and balancing goes into the sounds the pros and skills make. The assassin is visually very difficult to detect, but if you just listen for them, they are the easiest class to hear sometimes (the hum of the cloak is loud, and the smokebombs are about the loudest thing in the game). Additionally, Assault remote mines have a distinct hum, support air strikes have a distinct beeping...stuff like that often gives you way more information than your eyes can. Additionally, if you hear an enemy start a taunt nearby...free kill- "the water that supports the jetski... ::minigun:: :lol:." Although you no doubt love the gunner the most, if you really want to improve, play all of the classes a decent amount and intimately familiarize yourself with the unique sounds they make.

RUProfessional - I remember that name! Forget the details but I remember some repeated battling, thinking "I gotta GET that guy" and the like. Definitely still coming along on the sound front. Finally starting to react to air strikes, but the hum eludes me (every time buzzers come I look for the assassin), and I am having a hard time distinguishing between being wounded by a sniper versus a shotgun, so I react inappropriately to Supports that get the drop on me.

Something pretty ironic happened with the "Move In" guy.

I know he actually didn't really mean "Move In" like this, but I continued to experiment somewhat with the idea of skipping the bot line to go right for the enemy base, now with a 100% dedication to slaying turrets above all else, even living. The thinking is that other teammates like Tanks and Assassins are better at clearing the bots. If I have the turrets down by the time they get there, we have a strong position.

So we come to the map with the jump pad island (Grenade III?). Game begins, I keyboardspam my upgrade and come tearing out of the spawn while everyone else is fiddling in the menu. I leap off the front and jet down to the middle island, the jam FFFFFF as I sprint toward the jumppad closest to their base. I sail over their first outbound wave of bots (which I ignore) and I'm firing mortars at their level 1 RockIt even before I land, and the first one is down in moments. Some sniper is in a bad position and I "one-then-gun" him, which is my tactic against lighter classes... I have the mortar out anyway so I pop one at him then switch to chaingun while it's in the air. He's gone, and I flip back (no chaingun reload of course, that's just a few bullets gone so far) and I take down the second RockIt. Now I'm killing their bots from behind the line, mortaring everyone - bot or player. Ring out some guy with a slam.

Now, I *COULD* at this point start maining chaingun because it's "better" against pros and that's mostly what I'm fighting here. But I know their moneyball is about to go down, and if you think chaingun is better than mortar against pros, well, the difference vs the moneyball is 10x that. And if I use up my chaingun now, I will have to eat a reload. Not to mention that chaingun makes you:

1. slow down significantly - I evade a TON more fire while peppering mortars compared to firing the mini, especially from snipers
2. focus on your target at the expense of looking around

So there I am, killing enemy pros with the mortar while I single-handedly win the game, and what do I hear?

It's my old friend on the mic:

"Ha ha ha look at that Gunner! He is shooting PLAYERS with the mortar! Hey Gunner, you retard, use the mini against the players, the mortar cannon does NOTHING against them you noob!"

I literally killed an enemy with the mortar while he was saying that.

He kept on about it, too. All the way to the score screen that read yours truly in first with 5-2-0 (3-2 being from mortars) and second place (Move In guy) with 2 kills.

"Did anyone see that stupid Gunner using the mortar? Gunner, stop shooting players with the mortar, it does NOTHING!"

To be fair, I have to give credit where it's due. 90% of the time the Move In guy is top scorer on the winning team by a large margin, so he absolutely knows what he's doing, and is MUCH better than me. He is a ferocious Assasin with an annoying habit of staying alive even when you spot him and get some shots off. In the lobby, when I wait for him to team up so I can go opposite him, I know it probably means not only will I be on the losing team, but that it's going to hurt.

But that's what was so ironic about it... despite how much more he knows, of all the games he could have picked to mock my style, he picked the very best example of it working amazingly well. Plus, it was HIS "advice" (albeit perverted by my twisted form of listening) that convinced me to experiment with that style to being with!