I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it right"

First off, i'm very very much anticipating this game. I know it will be great, that's a given. The only question is "how" great and during which timeframe!

Initially i was a little bit disappointed by some tiny details that had been discussed, such as the simplified resource system, no real "power complex" bonus lines as in SupCom, and no upgrades for the units or factories.
I will be honest, i thought a bit of the same old "dumbing down" we usually complain about in other games.
This because i am a huge SupCom fan and played it on and off (casually, skirmish, for fun) for years.

However. And this is a big however.
I recently started playing Total Annihilation again. As in, getting the gog version, the unofficial community patch, and properly getting into it again instead of just playing a 1 off game then forgetting about the desktop shortcut.
Playing it "for realz" isntead of just letting it collect dust in my nostalgic memory of it.

And i must say... Despite being the type of gamer that always advocates MOOORE COMPLEXITY MORE MORE. There is a certain elegance in the simplicity of TA. The static factories and mass extractors. The lack of a gazzillion experimentals. The way that even a puny PeeWee has weapons that "feel" like they make a real impact.
The fact that walls actually make a difference and don't just appear with arbitrary healthbars as if they were a unit idling.
There's something about it, i can't quite put my finger on it.

I guess the point of this thread is, i'm converted. Converted by revisiting the old times.
You've made the right choices Uber, i must admit this now.
Especially considering the multiple planets, it'd be a real micro chore to hand-upgrade every single mass extractor, factory and obsessing over power plant to mass fabricator to factory to storage bonus links.

For this i was also quite disappointed by the choice to only have one faction.
I liked the variety about UEF, Cybrans (my fav), Aeon and Seraphim.
But again, after spending time once again with TA.. There's a charm to knowing exactly what each unit is capable of instead of having a massive spamfeast420 of unpronouncable Light Scout Anti-Air Torpedo Jammer Bomber.

I think PA will be another "elegance in simplicity" kind of game. Despite being set in an entire solar system with wide open options, of course. I'm talking about the core gameplay.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

I've got to admit that much of the reason I love SupCom is because of the ridiculous complexity. After years of playing I still learn things, get better and reach new levels of understanding of the game.

That being said I am converted and have high hopes for the simple yet deep ethos behind PA's game design.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Not a lot of people play strategy games simply cause they're too complex and competitive gaming in that genre requires some sort of intelligence and a lot of time.
I think PA will make certain uncompetitive gamers and people who left the strategy genre come back and play. I also believe PA will begin the new era of strategy games due to the features that we will see.

If this game fails to succeed I will kill us all.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Simplicity is exactly the reason my favorite RTS is currently SupCom2. *dodges haters*

Why do I like it? Because my friends can play that game. After one or two matches of sitting over their shoulder and giving directions, a new player is up to speed and can contribute to the team going forward - from there, they'll develop their preferred strategies, get better and more efficient, and try new strategies from time to time. One friend will mass experimental gunships while another will go for mass conversion and artillery.

I had one of my friends try SupCom1 and it really wasn't a fun experience. It was a lot of "yeah, you'll need to make a factory - make an engineer - build stuff next to other stuff I guess? Nobody really knows how the adjacency bonus works... um, you've got a mass stall for no apparent reason, what do you have running? I guess that factory is taking too much? Go ahead and pause it. Um... why is it still running? Oh! Pause the engineers that are assisting it. And you've got an energy stall now."

By contrast, the worst thing that happens to the economy when I coach friends in SupCom2 is "Dude, you have WAY too much mass. Build more factories noaw."

I admit that I haven't played TA - but it sounds like a simpler SupCom and I really want to try it. Unfortunately, my wallet has been leaking lately because lots of indie developers - Uber included (I guess Uber is indie?) - are doing awesome things. I'll probably just wait for PA's beta to experience TA-style gameplay.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

A game can be simple on the surface but because of the way it's built (on a simulation model for example) you can always find new strategies and such. Complexity is necessary for this type of game.

I agree about factory and mex upgrades though, that is sort of an arbitrarily introduced complexity. As long as there are other viable structures to produce mass I will be fine.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

I've tried to play TA sometimes but every time the lack of strat zoom, bad pathfinding, "I can't go there" engineer alarm spam, etc. makes me quit. That game feels like a mess after playing SC:FA.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

I solved that problem by having air engies assisting instead of the ground ones that always get in the way.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Almost like it was made 16 years ago, right?
:roll:

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

16 years? Man I feel old.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Your analysis here matches a lot of my thinking.

I will fully admit I don't think that we've captured the magic feel of TA *yet* but we are working on it. More features != better game.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

The one thing I did like about the supcom adjacency bonuses - they gave you nice easy targets to aim for

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

If you're interested Neutrino, my personal opinion is that it's all in the sounds.

EMGs sounded vicious, Lasers sounded like they burnt things and the Bertha made you smile and cringe at the raw power of its firing and impact. Units spun-up their engines, roaring at you as they moved and the DGun ripped into your speakers like a barely contained explosive scream.

Boot up TA and close your eyes during a battle...

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Also. The "only one faction" thinking is the thinking inside the box. The solar system/galaxy/destructible worlds will be your other playable faction.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

definitely, the explosions too!

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

This, and the perfectly responsive UI. Pointers context-swap the microsecond you mouseover a unit. Click any element and it responds absolutely instantly, like the Windows UI.

In supcom there was always a slight delay and it felt gluey. I think garat explained why that was in a thread just after the kickstarter ended. Something to do with something lag something (I don't remember).

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

TFW you fire the d-gun for the first time and it burrows through everything in its path, leaving nothing in its wake.

TFW your Commander explodes for the first time, and half the screen vanishes in a cataclysmic explosion.

And the deep bass rumble, and the scattery bits. Mmm hmm. Sometimes imba is good.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

Just have to highlight this again. TA used some of the best sounds for its weapons I've heard in any game. Even though there weren't that many different sounds, what it had was so impactful it really made the game feel alive.

I can still hear the Big Bertha kaboom sound when it fired after all those years. :twisted:

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

+sing

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

I really like the design for TA. If you watch the introduction video it really describes exactly what you are going to get: big battles and lots of carnage. There were some further interesting choices added with Core Contingency and there is plenty of room to expand further in directions Z-K, SupCom and games went, but the core game design is excellent and should be recaptured successfully before moving on.

Like Nuetrino and Garat keep sharing: more features != better game.

On the other hand I think Nuetrino's vision for PA is to have lots of units with the idea being that each offers new options, styles and gambits.

Anyone remember building 10+ Mavericks and going on a shooting spree? I got halfway through an enemy base before I had to stop and just admire each of those little desperadoes with their dodgy shuffle. Their armor wasn't that heavy and their range wasn't that high, but by golly they packed a mean punch.

Re: I went from "SupCom clone plz" to "no you're doing it ri

I def agree on the sounds of ta vs sup com...supcom sound effects along with the music sucked compared to ta..Whenever i played supcom I would turn on the ta sound track lol I think the music also added to the overall feel of a massive epic war. Do you guys agree that ta felt like a faster game? I always felt like supcom games were much slower and had less action. And the explosion effects in supcom were not as good as ta. All these little things just added to the epicness of ta. I'm hoping pa goes more along the lines of ta as far as speed, music, sounds, explosions, core game play.