Galate vs. Hornet

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by emarkus, January 7, 2019.

  1. emarkus

    emarkus Active Member

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  2. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    The Hornet overshoots its range when attacking, causing it to come into range of the Galata. This is why the Very Boring and Conservative Balance mod increases the Hornet's range, but really it needs an engine fix.
    bthirteen likes this.
  3. netpyxa

    netpyxa Active Member

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    It makes me a bit mad every time people claim that hornets cant outrange galatas. Likewise with the grenadiers and the laser turrets (including T2 ones!).

    Just learn how the unit AI works in PA:T. if you want to use a unit at its absolute max range, you should bring it to the opposing target but just outside of shooting range. A unit will then proceed to close distance and shoot at its absolute max range. It will not come any closer and will be absolutely safe. This is what AI routinely does if it detects enemy presence in near vicinity. It will attack at max range automatically.

    If you order attack move or order to attack a particular enemy, a unit will close to ~70% of its shooting range. It is supposed to make sure that the enemy cant retreat immediately and if he does, he will still keep taking damage because he will still be in range even if retreating.

    TLDR if you want max range, you do not use attack order but use a move order instead.

    I hope this video clears things up.


    Hornets can outrange anything in the game(except sniperbots). They can only be killed by sniperbots, orbital and of course the fighter planes.
    Last edited: January 7, 2019
    huangth, bthirteen and emarkus like this.
  4. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    No, it isn't. There's a setting that can assigned to units if it were designer intent. The Atlas uses it for example.

    When a similar issue was flagged with bots like the Grenadier a fix was released.
    huangth and stuart98 like this.
  5. netpyxa

    netpyxa Active Member

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    Which grenadier fix are you talking about? Grenadiers will close to ~70-80% of their shooting range and get killed by turrets if ordered to attack (like shown in the end of the video). I dont see the fix here. Or anything that needs a fix for that matter. if you want them out of turret's firing range you dont use attack move or attack order and it works like a charm.
    Last edited: January 7, 2019
  6. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    I wonder if adding an attack_range_frac greater than 1 might fix the problem? eg
    "attack_range_frac": 1.05,
  7. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Interesting thought, never tried it, though given increasing the range achieves the same effect it's probably not something I'd bother with.
  8. emarkus

    emarkus Active Member

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    Thanks. I didn't know this 70% stuff. Imho its wrong solution. Attack command should only move as far as necessary. If the target is running away, I manually give a move command towards the target. Would be nice, if the attack-command will be still valid while giving a move command. I am not sure, but i think this was possible in Total Annihilation by using the "Repeat" toggle-button.
  9. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    If you issue a move order after an attack command your unit(s) maintain the selected target. Not sure when they drop it, presumably when it's no longer in range or firing arc.
  10. netpyxa

    netpyxa Active Member

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    Wow dude thats some nice information i didnt know that. More than that. I have tested it and it works like that:

    If you issue a direct attack order on the enemy and then walk away from it outside the shooting range your units will still remember that target and reengage it again if they are in range again. Damn unit AI is pretty good in this game.

    There is even more. You dont need to actually shoot the target even once. You only need a direct attack order by clicking on a unit to flag it a priority target once. After that your troops will remember it and start engaging as soon as they are in range.
  11. w33dkingca

    w33dkingca Active Member

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    Nik gave me a quick workaround, use a patrol command, units will not go over board and move in , most of the time, its sdtill not 100% effective but better than a straight attack command. you can always click them just within their range of the target and they should fire from that position,
    NikolaMX likes this.
  12. netpyxa

    netpyxa Active Member

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    Patrol will put them in galata range. Patrol is a useful command if you want to send out an attacking blob but want to ensure two things:
    -Units stay as a group. Attack order will instead force all units move with their top speed and your formation will spread.
    -Units actively engage any enemy entities including the structures they meet. They disengage only if the enemy structures are destroyed. Move order does instead not allow the units to attack move and your blob might not destroy enemy structures and walk on by.

    Patrol is effectively an attack order which keeps formation and keeps units as a group. Neither move nor attack order can acheive the same effects.

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