Galactic Gates: A Universal Solution To Major Problems

EDIT: There have been a number of suggestions which I support, and will include here. I'm going to leave the ideas supported by the minority, since there should always be alternative ideas when doing anything.

In other words, this post no longer perfectly reflects my opinion. Check out that post for a more current opinion. Will have this post edited...eventually.

I'm hesitant to start another thread, since I, and some others, have brought up this idea elsewhere. This idea does span dozens of threads though, and since I'd rather not spam the same thing on all of them and have to maintain separate discussions in each, I thought it would be best to make a new thread which solely discussed this idea.

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I'll try to condense all my thoughts into a single list, so you don't need to read the entire thing.

TL;DR? At least read this!

Galactic gates:
1) Can act as portals through which resources flow.
2) Solves the issue of the universal vs planet economy.
3) Allows 'rare resources' (if added) to be easily implemented.
4) Discourages early game 'land-grabs' due to costs of construction.
5) Could be built by commanders or special interplanetary engineers.
6) Could be built in orbit or on the surface of a planet, depending on the situation.
7) Allows planet invasions to be more easily performed.
8) Can teleport units onto different planets.
9) Can teleport units around planets.
10) Can funnel units from the factories to the front lines.
11) Could be targeted by enemies to cripple your economy.

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Points 1, 2, and 3.
1) Can act as portals through which resources flow.
2) Solves the issue of the universal vs planet economy.
3) Allows 'rare resources' (if added) to be easily implemented.

Gates create a means by which interplanetary resource sharing can be done believably, while not hindering gameplay (though I foresee this being challenged).

Any planet could share resources across it's surface, the same way TA and SupCom was able to share resources across the map.

In addition, galactic gates would share these resources with the rest of the system.

Resources generated on one planet, if linked by a galactic gate, would be shared with all other planets using galactic gates.

If this global sharing ends up being overpowered or unbalanced, perhaps a tax on resources obtained via gates could be added. This could be adjusted until a proper balance was achieved.

The potential use of rare resources would also be easily feasible with gates. Simply obtain the resource from the planet, and ship it off-planet via the gates.

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Points 4 and 5
4) Discourages early game 'land-grabs' due to costs of construction.
5) Could be built by commanders or special interplanetary engineers.

Let's first understand that 'rush' games should not involve players starting on separate planets.

I believe that grabbing as many planets as you can at the beginning of the game isn't appealing. Since planets play such a large role in resource acquisition, and since interplanetary travel cannot really be feasibly done in the early game without defeating the point of there being different planets, I think an alternative is necessary.

If a galactic gate was needed to start building other structures, then this will slow down how quickly someone could colonize another planet.

There is also the matter of just getting something that could build on another planet. Creating this unit would also take time, and further limit the speed at which other planets could be colonized.

To maintain the economy system of Point 2, normal construction units on planets that don't generate any resources shouldn't be able to build. Only with support from a galactic gate would this be possible.

To solve the problem with interplanetary building, a specialized interplanetary construction unit could be used. These units could have a miniaturized galactic gate portal as part of their design, and thus have access to the economy wherever they go. The commander would be one such unit.

To avoid encouraging these units over normal construction units, they could be balanced to have slower build speeds than normal construction units, less health, greater costs, or any other factor that will enhance/hinder their performance. The commander would be exempt from these changes.

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Points 6, 7, and 8
6) Could be built in orbit or on the surface of a planet, depending on the situation.
7) Allows planet invasions to be more easily performed.
8) Can teleport units onto different planets.

Not only would galactic gates solve the resource problem, it would also solve the issue of interplanetary combat.

Currently, there are two known methods to invade a planet externally.

The first is by launching units onto the planet via a cannon on an orbiting object. To limit it to just this is ridiculous, since not all planets would always have an orbiting object.

The second is to just build things on the hostile planet. This will probably be difficult to do if the enemy has complete planet domination, and is also infeasible using interplanetary construction units because they will likely be poor builders (discussed in point 5).

Galactic gates offer a solution to this problem. Since orbital space will likely be difficult to defend (an assumption, but seems likely if planets were ever intended to be invaded), a gate could be built in orbit around a hostile planet. This could then be used to build orbital structures and create a base from which attacks could be made.

These orbital gates could then be dropped to the surface once an area is cleared (land or water). Orbital gates would not supply the surface with resources, whereas a surface gate could supply things in orbit.

When active, the gate could also be used to teleport units. I'm not quite sure if this should be possible in orbit (since we don't know how orbital units work). On the surface though, the initial invasion force could be reinforced by units streaming through the gate.

If teleporting units is unbalanced, perhaps a cost or restriction on how many can be sent at once. I think the latter is obvious, but the former will have to see how it plays out.

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Points 9 and 10
9) Can teleport units around planets.
10) Can funnel units from the factories to the front lines.

These two points are simply for ease of use. Moving units around planets will probably be tedious, if even possible at all. Launching them all via rockets seems infeasible.

The solution to this is, you guessed it, galactic gates.

Supply lines could be made to send units from factories, to gates, and then onto whichever waypoint was next.

This could be done by designating an entry gate, and then an exit gate with factory waypoints.

It could also be used to send groups of units on one planet to another easily.

Galactic gates could even be placed in multiple locations around a planet, allowing a player to more easily reinforce an area under attack.

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Point 11
10) Could be targeted by enemies to cripple your economy.

Gone are the days of small raids on solar plants and metal extractors. Welcome to the future, where a successful raid could not only reduce your income, but also completely compromise your economy.

Since galactic gates would act as the portals for resource transportation, they become vital components of your interplanetary empire.

A wise opponent would realize this, and plan attacks which target these structures. Not only would you lose access to the resources from other planets, all your other planets would lose the compromised planet's income.

To protect yourself from these attacks, multiple gates could be made. Only after the last one falls would that planet lose connection.

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So, thoughts?

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I still really think this can be a solution or balance for the global vs local economy debate.

I have one criticism, I would suggest a gate to transport units to be a separate building, so the resource gate could be relatively cheaper. Instantly moving units should be quite late game I think.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Hah, I did, and was pretty much completely ignored. Then repeated it with a link to the original, and still no response. It was either a terrible idea, or no one wanted to bother responding to it. Seemed like I was wasting my time posting there, so made this.

Also, yes. My original idea was just to have resources flow through the gates. After reading some of the other issues, I saw that they could be solved by an intuitive teleportation system (just like the original galactic gates). Since you'd need resources to build the teleporter on a distant planet, linking them together seemed obvious.

Looking back at it though, it does seem like late game tech. If they do need to be split, it just means adding two buildings for this idea, rather than one.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

This is a terrible idea, that will destroy any kinda positional strategy. It's also "solving" a bunch of non-problems.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I think troop movement through the gate should consume energy and take time like teleporting with the commander and SCU's in SupCom to balance out it being earlier in the tech path with its intention for resource management. The energy requirements being extraordinary until sufficient multi-planet resources generation is achieved.

What I'm thinking is that these would be similar to the quantum gate network in SupCom, you build a planet side quantum gate so that you can move out of your planet, and once you get the resources you construct the primary system quantum gate which allows inter system transportation. Of course this means that the system gate could be destroyed to cut off inter system resources and troops.

What I'm concerned about is how they will implement travel between star systems as IRL that could take an incredibly long time. Depending upon that it may be more practical to only have a land based quantum gate that upgrades to allow troop movement with more energy the farther away instead of needing a quantum gate at both sides. (as getting a quantum gate in a new system could take a long time). I may not have worded my idea supremely but I hope I got it across.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Describe "positional strategy".

This idea pretty severely limits how possible it is to expand across the solar system, and I suggested ways as to how teleportation could be balanced to discourage it constantly being used.

Also, this idea is based on several 'issues' that you seem to think are 'non-problems':

- How the economy will function across planets
If it's a global economy, you could be funding a war from the other side of the solar system. SoaSE was referenced as being a good indicator that this doesn't work perfectly.

- How planetary invasions work?
I explained the two current methods (shown by the KS video), and how they don't work when the enemy dominates the entire planet (buildings could not be made, unit landings would be infeasible to organize without enemy response. I suggested another way this could be done.

- How interplanetary movement will occur?
Unless you can launch your entire army via rocket to another planet (that'd be be HUGE missile, not to mention the amount of thrust it would need), they'd be stuck behind and fairly useless. You'd end up needing to reclaim them for the unit cap. This seems like a waste. I suggested an alternative which ties into multiple other gameplay features.

- How economic sabotage will work?
As much as we all like explosions, strategies often involve attacks on the opponent's economy to limit their ability to make things. This idea offers a way to integrate that into the game in a big way, while also fitting in with many other features of the game so it doesn't seem awkward.

This idea potentially solves these issues without being absurd in how much extra content needs to be added.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Just what game did you pledge for? I distinctly remember pledging for a game that was in space that was in the spirit of TA. Just what part of economy management is in TA? Or, for that matter, any RTS game? I cannot thing of a single game that uses an isolated economy across different areas of the game map short of perhaps a turn-based Civ-like game. You want to transform PA from a game spiritually based on an RTS with one of the simplest economies into one of the most complex economies ever conceived?

(someone please paste the above into the economy thread)

As for teleporters, their implementation would cripple any and every other form of transport. Air transports, unit cannons, space transports, even plain walking. To make it worse your justifications through different teleporters with different capability is actually the last nail in the coffin, as it means that you can always use teleporters instead of other forms of transport (unless you actually make teleporters slower than walking).

In addition, like zordon said, you are killing any form of strategic unit placement, and at any point you can send your units to the area/planet under attack. This encourages blob warfare, which has no strategy involved in it at all.

Edit: To give you an idea of how much i hate this idea, I have watched the forums with increasing dismay of the horrific ideas being posted, but it was *this* idea that finally made me post.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Awesome, so I accomplished something then

I suppose you have a good point about increasingly the complication. I think it adds to the game, you disagree. I understand that.

But as for blob warfare. Teleportation would cost the player... just like it did whenever teleportation was involved before. I'm extrapolating potential applications when I say reinforcing an invasion or funnelling production. Perhaps I should edit the post.

Makes me think you didn't read the post. Could have at least read the section you're complaining about.

Anyway, it seems unpopular. Oh well.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Even if it isn't the main solution to a problem it could still be added as an expensive but rapid alternative to troop transport and/or SCUs.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I don't know why so many seem to have problems with this idea. This is much simpler and smoother than most of the ideas I've seen. I think though, instead of having two different buildings, that one that gets upgraded from the resource link into the unit teleporter(while retaining the resource linking ability) seems to make more sense.

That would work with my idea of the Orbital Module(see 'Should resources be tracked per planet/moon' thread). Which would be used as the starting point for planetary invasion. As it serves as the basis for orbital platforms or could be directed towards other planets with the ability to take a (sub/)commander or engineers. It would have a limited version of the gate which would then allow a full one to be built either in orbit or giving the cover to start the foothold gate on the planet. There would be uses for either because if there are stiff defense on the ground it would let you drop/launch units down to assist.

I had been trying to think of some way to work these all together into a simple, robust and manageable system that wouldn't need a super computer to handle. As I had mentioned in the 'Logistics (ammo, fuel, electricity, building materials, etc)' thread, that when you think of all the things that could be happening( consider the mechanics of orbital motion moons to planets to stars... with 4-5 planets in a system) a simple and durable system will be more important than having all the micro management involved in small unit battles and resourcing. I would like there to be planetary managers too but that is a completely different thread, that I won't go into here.

These are just my humble opinions, as I doubt EVERYone will be completely happy with whatever Uber comes up with. I'll just be happy if the unit ai and basic mechanics run smoothly and cleanly.

EDIT: minor spelling, grammar issues.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I agree mecharius. While these gates could be a potential inclusion in the game as long as the game is fun and solves the problems that the gates solve I will be pleased. Still, the mechanics that the gate could give are some that I would like to see in the final PA.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Why do people have a problem with this idea??
Both TA and SupCom had gates, tho you never used them in this way since those games didn't have multiple planets on the same map and didn't have a star map which you actively played.
Wasn't even whole planets, just some piece of it which was important...
I mean really, PA is multiple new levels of strategy above what both TA and SupCom ever had... It's a whole other geometry too!
I find this idea completely feasible as a latergame attack option for interplanetary transportation and I find it outright necessary for interstellar transportation, unless such dropship-carriers gets implemented instead.
Heck, when you use it there could even be some kind of "quantum fluctuation" or rift appearing at the target location while all the units are loading up for the teleport, that would alert anyone with a visual on the area.
Of course such teleport invasions would be immensely energy expensive...

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I don't really see any problem with this. It's a very good solution to the local vs. global economy problem, an adds another strategic element to the game.

You could just make it so that it has to be a certain distance away from you so that the teleporter works (for example, a few planet lengths away). This would make sure it didn't replace other forms of local transportation. Another way to limit it would be to make only a few units go through it at a time, and a possible delay between going into the teleporter and the next unit going towards it (like if the teleporter needed to charge).

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I am undecided about this idea because:

1. It promotes planet level combat. You gate straight in to the action. None of the issues that arise from interplanetary transports, which IMO cause more problems then they solve. I really do not want this game to descend into rock slinging late game. I would like the option to win the battle on the ground. Losing the core values of RTS by going big scale is something that worries me. For this reason I like it.

2. The issue of resources is an interesting one. In previous games the person with the best resource infrastructure often won the battle. This is because you can make more, more expensive units faster. It's not a difficult concept to get your head around. Though how it works between planets is the part that people are concerned about. How can a commander land a force on an established planet late game and compete with the defending force on a fair (not even, but fair) playing field where he stands a chance of winning the battle? I agree it should be harder for attacking commanders, but not impossible.

3. We are talking resources across an entire solar system. Late game there is going to be a lot of stuff to manage by the few commanders who are left and I think that maybe resource distribution might not need to be one of them.

4. By all indications the ideas behind interplanetary travel are rudimentary. We're talking rockets and unit cannons here. Not complicated stuff IMO. We're also lacking in the shields department according to the Dev videos. I feel that they are really looking at the bare bones of TA and trying to make a game that embodies what TA was all about. For that reason I am not sure galactic gates have a place in this game. But on the other hand they might be a way of bringing us into the future, or so to speak.

5. I am also suggesting that there might not necessarily be huge scope for stopping a player simply suffocating his rival using a snowballing economy. It has always been the tactic in previous games. In the end the rich will always have a better chance of winning and if you find yourself the last commander against two or three more powerful foes your fate is decided. Though I take issue with this as really it seems that there would be little point in continuing to fight from that position and we're potentially not talking about the last ten minutes of a game here because of the scale. Your last planet or two might take a few hours to fall, but in the end their fate was sealed before the first attack. I can't wait to see what the Uber guys come up with in the interest of keeping the game interesting right up until the last battle.

6. Because moving your forces around the solar system is a long process I think there needs to be some kind of way to do it in a reasonable amount of time. It's going to be late game. Perhaps we are talking about as we go up the tech levels we will be evolving a lot slower and perhaps as we do so, interplanetary travel will become faster and more efficient to allow for the larger distances travelled between battles.

Early on we are on the same planet. When that battle is done or if you want a moon base or perhaps you need to escape to another planet after a crushing defeat, you need to use the rocket or the unit cannon. Late game when you perhaps need to go between one planet to another on opposite sides of the solar system there has to be a way to do this and right now gates are the only way I can think of doing it without ruining the game mechanic.

EDITED: because I went off at a tangent to my original point.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Good points Wolfdogg, I feel that gates are a possible solution to some problems and game mechanic choices which is what I gathered from your post as well. Whatever mechanic is eventually decided upon I feel that this gate mechanic has its potential place.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

I don't see it personally, maybe it would be something for a mod.

To put the arguments against, the commander is the thing you move to expand.

The cost to expand is the booster rocket.

The economy is the thing to attack to cripple an economy.

Planetary invasions not required, we have asteroids.

Dropships and unit cannons are also fun.

The system lords are false gods... etc

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

That is exactly what I don't want to see. After a certain stage in the game it could so easily turn to what I'd call rock slinging and that would just get boring. It's like getting into late game sup com and being restricted to launching nukes.

1. It's boring.

2. It ruins the game.

3. No one uses that tactic because of it's obvious flaws.

For me this game is all about large scale unit battles. I'm not saying I don't care about asteroids because if you just can't get planet side then it's pretty much your only choice.

There is one thing that I feel is overlooked here and that is the fact that a galactic gates need a gate at each end to function. Therefore they cannot be used as an assault mechanism. By all means establish a landing party and build a gateway through which your thousands of units can pour. But initially there will need to be some kind of other solution to getting onto the planet, annihilate the enemy commander and capture it and it's resources for your own devices.

EDIT: IMO asteroids need to be prohibitively expensive to make them your last option when considering how to engage a hostile planet.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Err.. have you even played TA or SupCom??
Have you ever seen a mission starting with the commander coming out of a gate? No?
Then it is probably because he doesn't but actually gets teleported in and in SupCom you even see the effect.
Given, in SupCom it is the quantum gate which is in orbit that materializes the commander but in old TA it is actually the gate in the previous planet/star system which transmits the commander in a one way trip fashion.
And it is TA that guides us the most isn't it??
Then obviously, we should be able to construct such gates as an energy expensive transportation method between planets.
I would also go as far that a linked up gate to actually receive at the other end should reduce the cost of energy.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Teleporting units will be necessary, it is almost impossible to transport large groups of units over large distances:

• Transporters? Forget about them. Their actual transport capacity decreases with the distance so they are suited for short range transports only. Like planet hopping.
• Unit canons? You can shoot units from a moon to the planet, but sending them on an interplanetary travel? Now way, thats impossible!
• Rockets? How many rockets do you plan to have flying around?

You see, unit teleporting is essential in late game as it is the only type of transport which can help to travel over long distances without time factor.



Now for the shared economy: Sharing metal between to planets and sharing energy are two completely different aspects and should never be treated the same.
Using gateways to get metal of metal rich planets to metal free planets would be fine for me, but transferring energy? Don't do that. A planet may not be able to make use of a quantum gateway without having established a local economy.
This means transporting units or metal of a planet should cost energy, same goes for importing metal or units. The metal flow rate is limited both by the capacity of the gateway as well as the energy production on both ends of the gateway.

But even with metal, sending metal from planet to planet via ion beam or alike would be more efficient than using a full quantum teleport. The only benefit of quantum teleports, is that units and metal appear in realtime and that the distance has no effect on the transport costs.

The transport costs of units should scale with their mass value, teleporting a unit of a specific metal cost should cost the same amount of energy as sending the pure metal. (Factoring units with high energy costs on a planet with large energy resources like gas giants and importing metal on such planets is a valid move!) This also discourages players from turteling on a single planet as the portal network is just as efficient as the economy of your smallest base.

Transporters will still be useful in late game, as they operate independent from energy production, so they still fulfill their purpose when establishing new bases or launching assaults. Same goes for unit canons, short range but very energy efficient.

Besides: Commanders should always be able to teleport to any established, powered quantum gateway, without the need for a local gateway or energy supplies. Only prerequisite is, that the targeted gateway has still enough power to pull the commander in (every commander has a tracking beacon embedded where the gateway can lock on). Every other unit or metal always requires two portals and both must be powered. Teleporting to positions without gateways is a not available, the advantage is far to high.
Also this is only possible from locations with interstellar gateways, something you can't establish in a single match.

Re: Galactic Gates: The Universal Solution To Every Problem

Supreme Commander Forced Alliance mission 1.