France facing totalitarianism?

Discussion in 'Unrelated Discussion' started by tatsujb, December 6, 2015.

  1. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    Just one tiny bit from me.

    Actually, when it lines up with segregation based on nationality or race, yes, yes it is.

    If America, or people within America that apparently have a decent popular vote to become the leader of America, proposed a blanket ban on immigration? That wouldn't be racist.

    As it is, with the current proposal? Yes, yes it is. The same goes for any other country proposing something similar.
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  2. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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  3. cwarner7264

    cwarner7264 Moderator Alumni

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    I'm confused by the bolded statement above. Would you say that it is racist, for example, for the UK to have a different immigration policy for applicants from China, India, France, Canada and Zimbabwe?

    By the same vein, would you consider the UK's current immigration policy (freedom of movement for all EU citizens vs strict restrictions for non-EU citizens) to be racist?

    I'm not trying to be inflammatory here; I feel I may be misunderstanding your statement - those are two examples of an immigration policy that segregates by nationality.
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  4. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Yeah I realize what the Paris bombing did and that reaction to me is the clear proof that the reactions of politics are still as childish as ever. A few little terror attacks and all sanity is washed away. If we had one of those attacks EVERY DAY I might agree on violent reactions. But one single attack? I mean sure it's sad for the victims, but that's about it. Going insane because of it is the one reaction they wanted to achieve. Those terrorists don't give a damn about a few people they kill and they only kill to get the reaction they got. "Terrorists win"
    A standpoint totally not useful in politics, but yeah I am not trying to get people to vote for me.

    I am not trying to give a manual for a politician trying to get voters to understand. Don't think that is possible, they'll all vote themselves into the next world war someday, voting for people like le pen is just the first step, I am just stating what I think would be right to do to actually improve the situation, I know it's unrealistic that anything like that will happen.
    In the end that's all what a single person can do, tell them they are wrong, sit back and watch the world burn... hoping for the best. Certainly overall it's better than it ever was in all of history. Oh well.
    Last edited: December 8, 2015
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  5. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    France and the UK seem to think so.


    sending hugs and kisses won't do jackshit. We're talking about a well-organized, well-trained, well-armed group of people that don't think twice about killing someone, or dying for a cause. IS doesn't hide the fact that they brutally murder people. The problem is that we don't have a plan beyond bombing them. Oh and that we also bomb their homes and schools. It would be nice if we bombed strategic targets only, but that's not what's happening.

    IS won't go down without some form of war. It'll go a lot easier if we can make recruitment less easy for them.

    To be honest, the terrorists won about 14 years ago.
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  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    The context here is:

    "being anti-immigration"

    From the post I quoted. Which is of course pretty different from legally-implemented immigration policies the world over. I realise if Trump actually got in and enacted this policy my argument would be defeated by this logic, but I hope you see where I'm coming from. I'll rephrase, but keep the above for thought process:

    Opposing immigration solely based on concerns of nationality or race is in fact racist. Much like doing the same for genders is sexist (excusing the confusion of terms). The legal policies of the UK in particular I do not always agree with, so I'm sure there are instances / cases / aspects of them I could criticise for discrimination, yes. But they do not solely refuse immigration based on race (I think the only flat-out "no" clauses relate to global blacklists, INTERPOL, etc. and other obvious stuff such as coming from a site with active disease warnings).
  7. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    I am quite certain a large part of their recruitment is based on pointing fingers towards the "evil crusaders". Those "crusaders" do have a pretty bloody slate and that's a crucial part for their propaganda.
    I mean seriously why do people join the IS? Why do they go and believe in IS propaganda? Probably because people have seen the hypocrisy of western powers and the IS offers a pretty clear answer to that. Every bomb dropped is a new argument for the IS.

    That said I do agree the fastest way to get rid of them probably does go through violence. It's just ... even when one decides to use violence one should have a plan that goes beyond "we'll kill them". There just is no real plan to be found, as you say. Just blind angry violence.

    Probably true.
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  8. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    It's a promise of glory and power. Plus, it's aimed at a group of people with nothing to lose.
  9. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    @Gorbles are we talking about race or about Muslims? The second is a religion and a religion is an idea. Religious ideas are mostly irrational and ideas can be good or bad.

    I personally find most religious ideas bad just because they are based on ancient text from ages when people used to kill each other very often, abuse women and many other nasty things.

    And in my mind it makes no sense that God gave humans some poorly written instructions that he knew we would fail to understand many times (yihad, Inquisition...)
  10. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    Muslims are people. As are Jews (Israeli is a nationality, while Jewish refers to race and also religious practitioners. It gets a bit messy, semantically).

    Islam is the religion.

    I'm a strong atheist myself, but I would never reject people from entering a country on racial grounds.
  11. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    Christianism- Christian
    Islam- Muslim

    You can't tell apart a Muslim from a non-muslim without talking to them.
    Atheism has nothing to do with racism.
    Can we at least agree on the meaning of words? (you can use a dictionary if you're not sure)
  12. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Many religions demand their strong believers to wear or do things that makes it possible to identify them.

    I don't think religious stuff is either good or bad, in the end it's all about interpreting old fantasy books.
    You can put heavy emphasis on one phrase where it says "never ever hurt another" or instead on a phrase "all heathens must burn". I'd bet you can find both kinds of phrases in most religious books. Judging a person based on their religion is therefore completely pointless.

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  13. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    -Ey! Why did you throw me a stone?
    (Rational)-because you stole my car.
    (Irrational)-because I read I must in an ancient wall that I believe God painted.

    I like the rational answer better.
    The Bible is completely incoherent between the new and old testament.
  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    Never said atheism had anything to do with racism, but there is an overlap between strong atheism and nationalistic sentiments.

    Though I would make the argument that nationalism stems from extremist beliefs regardless of the ideology, and that atheists can be just as extreme in their beliefs as the most fundamentalist theists.
  15. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    or even if you do talk to them.....

    they can choose not to admit it. Just like a christian. Just like an Atheist.

    You must think those border-entry questionaires with the "are you a terrorist?" question are foolproof shure fire.
  16. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Don't think it's that simple. I am pretty sure in most cases people might use "god demands me to do it" as an explanation, but the true reason is just something they do not want to admit. All that religious stuff is just an easy way to get an excuse. That sort of works as long as you feel you're together with a lot of other people who use the same excuse.
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  17. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    Yep you all are right. We want to think that our non religious ideas are rational but in the end they are just "beliefs" too, that's why we can't reach an agreement. Only in science we can convince someone to see the "Truth"

    But back to racism, it is important if "we" don't want people with some ideas, with some habits or with some physical nature. Muslim share a common ideas and habits but not a "look". They look very different from one another.

    There are lots of Spaniards that look like north African Muslims but share nothing more with them.

    These politicians should clarify who are they gonna ban before we could call them names xD
  18. badfucatus

    badfucatus Active Member

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    I think you'll find they do have something in common, a linked history. The Moors (northern african) ruled the Iberian peninsula for a couple of hundred years.
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  19. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    I'm from Spain and it was much more than 200 years in my land. They no longer share the religion or traditions. Of course I didn't mean to say that their genetic resemblance was a coincidence...
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  20. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    they have.

    that is....

    to the extent of what they deem "clear". they're persuaded that when it is all this clear to them in their head it necessarily is clear to us also.

    but of course in reality it is absolutely impossible and insane to hope to draw any sort of boundary. we do not have to wait for them to make sense. it is absurd for us to hope that they will. they cannot.
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