Feedback from a long time FPS and MOBA player

First off, great job creating an entertaining and fun world. Just wanna get that out there. Also this doesn't feel like a "console port" nearly as much as most games developed for a home console and brought over to PC. There is still some distinct console flavor to things but overall it plays well on a PC.

Now I'm going to break down some issues I have with the game into a few paragraphs. This is by no means a "hate thread" I actually find that overall this game is very enjoyable and a solid title that I will continue to play and support. I just feel it could be BETTER, and I want to voice these opinions not because I dislike the game, but rather because I DO like the game and I want it to be everything I feel it COULD be and more.

First I'm going to start with the HUD/UI:

The majority of the UI is decent enough but I find there are a couple of areas that could use improvement and I will give reasons why.

The skill buttons in the bottom right of the UI could be better. They worked fine when it was color based however now that you can use a keyboard it seems as though it would be prudent to change how they are numbered. Rather than simply have "1 2 and 3" why not have each one display the key it is bound to (for example Q E and Shift) Also increasing the size of the "recharge bar" and possibly showing markers for skills that have multiple uses before running out would be a good way to increase readability.

When playing as support it would be prudent to make it so that the names of the target you are healing with the Heal/Hurt gun are smaller, and that the health bar is larger. Currently when healing a tower the name will obscure the health bar.

I read that you chose not to include a minimap due to how it affects gameplay. (making it a map watching game rather than relying on paying attention to the action in front of you.) This seems fine and a very logical decision FOR CROSSFIRE. However I feel that its in the best interest of the players to have access to a minimap display for Blitz mode.

The build/skill menu has a tiny issues that I feel may just be something that I'm nitpicky about. The majority of games that use a circular menu such as that have the TOP be the first selection as its the one people look at first. Most people would expect the order to go TOP:1 Right:2 Bottom:3 Left:4 While its certainly something you can adjust to its more practical to the new user to to not even have to think about it.

That about covers all of the UI issues I have with the game. Now comes the meat of the feedback: the gameplay. Overall I feel that the game has a good balance but unfortunately there are a small number of large problems.

Towers
Towers are one of, if not the biggest, problem currently. They are a very large investment not only financially, but also timewise. However currently they are too fragile and easily dealt with. One of the biggest problems is that every class can out range them, by a massive amount. Now this wouldn't be an issue if they took very little damage from the classes long range weapons (such as how the sniper rifle and railgun work) However the grenade launcher and mortar launchers are EXTREMELY effective at killing towers. A mortar fire can take out a Lazer Blazer in 3 shots if you have the upgrade, all from a safe range. Players need to feel as though their money AND TIME were not in vain. Currently the only time you are able to make an effort to build up towers is if you have a support hacking them, and also happen to be on the winning team (pressure while on the losing team makes it near impossible to build up a defense once its taken down.)

Certain towers are simply too weak compared to others. The Lazer Blazer is not a good place to put money into, if they didn't have a build time for upgrading then perhaps it might not be an issue, however due to this the TIME aspect of the investment comes into play.

Killing towers should grant money based on the tower killed. Stronger and more expensive towers should give more, and cheaper less expensive towers should give less. Currently building a Lazer Blazer is effectively the same as giving your opponent 25$ which is the same cost as the tower itself. Towers should also have build and upgrade times based on the type of tower rather than having the same time for each. This allows players to quickly build a makeshift defense using weaker towers which offsets the financial cost because the TIME cost is lower.

People also need incentive to build towers, currently you get money for assists/kills on pros if your tower gets it, however this is fairly rare and doesn't really help. This should also grant a small amount of money for each bot kill/assist.

Classes
Every class in this serves a fairly unique role, and that's good. However there are some clear issues with the balance of the game as a whole.

Deployment is rarely if ever worth using as a Tank, and even more rarely as a Gunner. The tank suffers as the Jetgun is built for short range and single target this does not work well for a siege type mode as the enemy can simply swarm him with numbers, get in his blind spots, or simply back up. The railgun also doesn't lend itself well to a siege mode due to its low rate of fire and precision design lending it more to single targets. The gunner has weapons that lend themselves very well to a siege mode, however he suffers from the fact his siege mode doesn't have the one thing it DOES need which is the ammo regen that the Tank has. The lowered field of vision, coupled with inability to turn completely around, the setup or takedown time for using the skill, and the lack of any mobility means that the pros for the abilities are heavily outweighed by the cons. Give the Tank the ability to deal AoE damage with his weapons when deployed, remove the ammo regen and increase the range on the jetgun when deployed. Give the gunner the ammo regen that the Tank had, decrease the Takedown time but increase the setup time for his siege mode.

Health overall is an issue in this game, when creating a custom class its nearly completely unheard of for a person to NOT take Silver or Gold Armor. This is due to a few factors: 1 the majority of weapons deal A LOT of damage, but most importantly the assassin is extremely OP when you DON'T have an armor endorsement, however once you get an armor endorsement she merely becomes an annoyance. This is a problem. Increase the base health of every class, reduce the efficacy of the armor endorsements, and have the endorsement give different amounts for the class it is on.

The grenade launcher for the Assault, and the Blind Grenade for the Tank are simply too fast and not affected by gravity enough. It makes it too easy to spam them around corners but also too difficult to intentionally try and rebound them at specific angles. It also makes them feel like long range weapons which should not be the intent the assault should be forced to aim more carefully.

The assassin's lunge should use up part of her Dash charge to reduce spamming of the ability. Also stealth as a whole needs some work, its simply available too often and too effective at what it does. It needs to either drain faster, or take longer to recharge.

The sniper needs to be knocked out of zoom when he jumps, and have a slight delay between zooming and firing to prevent simply taping Alt fire and hip shooting.

the support could do with a nerf to the health of his firebase once its deployed. I feel its got a good level of vunerability during the deployment stage but once its out (at level 3 most noticeably) its a bit too beefy.

Bots
Bots need to be looked at, the gapshot could do with a range decrease, the bouncer needs to have reduced damage from grapples, and the scramblers need to be faster moving.

A purchase menu for bots would be an interesting way to spice up gameplay. As it stands some classes simply get a better bang for their buck, but adding a menu to the "buy bots" node would allow you to price different bots at different levels as well as allowing different classes to purchase different bots.

In conclusion
Well I sure wrote a lot here, I doubt anyone cares or will even read it (much less incorporate any of this) but I want MNC to be as great as a game as I feel it can be. Thank you for the awesome game Uberentertainment, I hope you continue to support it.

I think the gunner deploy is just fine myself. At level 3, I'm protected from headshots and anyone in my sights is slowed to a crawl before they die, which is immensely satisfying, even if I do have to reload from time to time.

Regarding assassin's cloak, I think it's pretty balanced; if anything it needs a buff. It's easy to see cloaked assassins when they're moving and even easier to hear that they're around. The more that they want to sneak around and try to backstab people the better, because they're not destroying bots or turrets that way, or spamming shurikens.

I wouldn't mind a buff to the cloak in terms of how easy it is to see a cloaked enemy, however I feel that it needs a nerf in terms availability, it should require more thought as to when you are going to cloak and when you aren't going to cloak.

I know you can't headshot a gunner, but I find its easier to simply throw a grenade at em, or spam things from outside their effective range, or simply go behind them. Mobility is a big thing to give up, its one of the main reasons that the Scout in TF2 is played in every comp team but the Heavy is rarely seen (more often now that they gave him a boost to his mobility)

tl;dr :roll:


The game is pretty balanced, and bots are fine. Things are the way they should be and if you take the time to appreciate the game the way it is, you will understand why I feel this way. I feel that Scathis has done a great job with the formulas and numbers and everything feels so balanced.

I read "nerf quickscoping", stopped there

Your response makes it hard to tell if the TL;DR was actually a joke or not.

If the numbers are fine why is it almost every person who builds a custom class takes either gold or silver armor endorsement? And its the #1 response people give on how to deal with assassins (let me clarify I don't feel Assassin's are OP, I feel that in a weird spot that isn't entirely considered balanced as Gold/Silver armor can effectively completely counter them making them feel under powered. But without those endorsements they receive too high of a reward for too small of a risk making them feel over powered. Its a weird sort of pseudo-balance that ultimately makes both the person playing the 'sin and the person playing against the 'sin feel unsatisfied.)

If the bots are fine then why is it that the typically the only bots I ever see are gapshots and on rare occasion gremlins?

And if you DID read my post, what are your feelings on my UI feedback that you didn't mention whatsoever?

@grimbar quickscoping / hipshooting is precisely why when designing TF2 they put a charge system in place for the rifle.

Wasn't a joke. I already kinda knew what you were going to write. Usually it's some form of... LETS CHANGE XXX. To be honest, I feel the game is balanced and fine the way it is. Somehow I just like it the way it is and do not feel that anything needs to change. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. Also, the UI... it's fine imho. I don't see anything wrong with it whatsoever.

A agree that turrets could use a buffing, and I like the idea of reduced lunge spamming. I disagree heavily with all of your other recommended changes to classes. The support's firebase is fine, and the last thing it needs is a health decrease. I also agree about bots, except with the bouncer. Are you saying that the bouncer should take less damage from grapples. or that the bouncer's grapple should do less damage? If it's the former then I can't disagree more. Grapples are the only way for supports or snipers to even deal with bouncers.

Also, gunner deploy is incredibly useful if used correctly. It should be used for spot killing, not long term. Deploying increases damage dropoff over range (basically increasing damage done at mid range), increases crtical shot chance (try running gold crit shot and deploying when ever you 1v1 someone), and slows down your target considerably.

Tank deploy, while not particularly useful in combat, will speed up your health regeneration considerably. Rather than a deploy, think of it as a skill that heals you at the cost of being immobile for a couple of seconds.

Some of the things you said I can agree with. That being said, I also thought that a lot of what you said showed little knowledge of the game which is understandable. One example being, Turrets do need buffs but not from what you said; turrets need buffs against juiced pros because a juiced Assassin and a tank can easily destroy 2-3 turrets which you spent your hard earned money on. The Assaults grenades do very little damage to rocket turrets and are easily countered by a support heal and somebody to go after him because lets face it, you shouldn't let that happen. Lazers do need some buffs (you wouldn't believe how much better they were pre Spunky on xbox) but they serve their purpose of a bot killer and a distracter. It is really easy to kill them but that is the purpose of them, they are cheap.

The balance in this game is phenomenal as is. The tank deploy is really good and is worth the upgrade because of the health restoration. If no supports are around to heal you, you sit in a corner and your health will restore VERY quickly. I agree with gunner though, the cost is not worth the upgrade.

Gunners, Tanks, and Assaults can make short work of Firebases even with support heals so long as some teamwork is involved.

Bots definitely need improvement because lets face it, only Gapshots and Gremlins are usable at this state. To many things can one shot Bouncers and 70% of the time buzzers don't hit any targets of value. Scramblers may have more use than what people can see of them but Snipers don't use them simply because they see no rewards themselves. I think they should siphon money from the players and bots to the Sniper that spawned them so more people will give them a try.

I also do not agree that every class should be able to pick which bot they want to spawn. It's an original idea that should be kept pure, however I feel like you should have more control over the bots you spawn and maybe add more depth to the buying process (bot upgrades/hacks).

other than Rockit Turrets (which I feel are balanced except against juiced pros (esp assassins) most of the other turrets are extremely easy for a assault to grenade launcher spam to death.

Also look at a Support, at level 3 air strike he can simply tripple air strike ANY turret and run away, regardless of juice. And if you are any good at arcing your shots you can often do it from relative safety. With little to no risk to himself that support just cost you potentially $1050 plus however much time you spent building/upgrading it, and hacking it (if you are a support.) On Steel Peel Arena as a Gunner I can easily spam mortars from safety at towers and quickly take them out.

And as for Bouncers I ment that they should TAKE reduced damage from Pro's grapples, not majorly but instead of being 1hit killed by every pro's grapple why not have them reduced to 75%? The pros that don't have easy ways to deal with bouncers (support/sniper) have a other options at their disposal than their basic grapple. A Support has either his turret, or an air strike, and his shotgun is no slouch either. A Sniper is rarely going to be in the line of fire of a Bouncer anyway, but if he is then he has a grapple and flak, plus as I said he is rarely going to be the target of a bouncer.

The firebase wouldn't be a problem if it didn't have as much range as it does when you hack it. I've been able to hide behind something overhealing a firebase while two tanks are preocupied trying to railgun it to death. The only classes that are particularly effective at killing it is the Gunner with a mortar, the assault with a grenade launcher, or a support with air strikes. Even then they can have trouble without backup. If it took as much time to setup a firebase as it does for an Engineer to setup his turret in TF2 (not to mention the vunerability factor that he needs to leave his turret to get metal to repair it and unless hebuilds a dispenser he can't get healed while repairing it, which means MORE time spent.) then it'd be a different thing. The firebase is actually harder to kill than most of the base turrets. I don't think it should be majorly nerfed, just a small percentage. 10% less max health (which in turn would lower his overheal max) would probably do it.

You said to use the gunner's deploy in 1v1 situations. However during the time he is deploying I usually just go for his blind spots, or simply avoid him entirely and move on. The best gunner's I've played hagainst I've never seen deploy once (this includes a level 60+ gunner who tore my team a new one.)

Once again, you are claiming stuff without giving the game enough of a chance. 3 airstrikes may take out a level 1 turret with overheals but i highly doubt a level 2 or 3 would die like that. And like I said, if a Gunner or an Assault is spamming grenades, its your fault.

Support does not do nearly enough damage to Bouncers without grapple.

A tripple air strike does 7500dmg. Enough to take out lazer lvl 3, or a longshot lvl 3(actually both of these only require a DOUBLE airstrike to be killed.) A triple air strike will leave a level 2 Rockit with 500health out of its 8000 max. Enough to easily take it out with no effort whatsoever. A level 3 would be left with 5500, which is fairly respectable but getting a level 3 Rockit turret is often a feat into itself if your opponent is pressuring you (plus the sheer cost of the turret is fairly high at $1050 total cost, often about 25% of what most players have made before the match is over.)

Your solution is to have a support constantly babysit all turrets at all times, which is impossible. You simply can't keep all turret max overhealed all the time, the time it takes to overheal a turret, combined with movement time, combined with the simple fact he is going to be a target for assassins or snipers while he is doing this means you'd be lucky to keep two towers halfway overhealed most of the time.

Also this only effects Rockit towers, you can still take out a lazerblazer or long shot with literally no effort.

The grenade launcher for the assault does 300damage per shot to turrets. Considering the naturally high crit chance of the assault, coupled with the fact many assaults take gold RoF endorsement most turrets are fairly vunerable to his shots (which are also quite long ranged making it hard to counteract his spam, turrets require a 30second time between taking damage before they begin regenerating health.) Considering a gold RoF gives a 0.7 modifier to your attack speed (which the assaults grenade launcher has a 1 shot per second attack rate) This means he can deal 400damage per second to turrets. A level 1 lazer blazer has 1500health, a level 1 rockit has 5000health. Throw crit chance into play and its fairly easy for him to do a lot of damage to your turrets from relative safety.


Bouncers have 5000health (the most out of any bot except jackbots) A supports shotgun does 405damage max (assuming all 15buckshot hit the target, which against an bouncer isn't very heard.) If a grapple on a bouncer only took him down to 1250 (meaning it would take 75% of its health instead of the full 100% of its health) then it would only take 3shots from your shotty to take him out. Or half an airstrike (they do 2500dmg each)

I feel like Bouncers are pretty stable where they're at. If you ignore them, they'll deplete your shields.

If you grapple them, well that leaves you vulnerable while you do your sweet killing animation.

My biggest gripe is that some classes (Assassin and Gunner mostly) when played by good people, can completely lock down your entire effort.

I've seen more than a few servers where people all just up and leave cause that one guy is wrecking the fun.

Thanks. You see my true talent. JK. Anyway, you know why gunners shouldn't deploy too often? What they lack is SPEED. If you're a sitting duck, you're no use to your team and a headshot waiting to happen, headcrab and ground zero as well.

Deploy does have it's uses, such as keeping players in their spawn area. If they dare to leave their spawn, the gunner will be sure to MOW them down.

No thanks. Firebases are easy to kill, sorry.

What?! No... Bouncers aren't easy to kill except for using grapples. Any other means takes too much time or too much resources. Flak is going to do what good against a MOVING target? :roll:

ever seen/heard of a ShaveIce. :roll:

Last I checked, most turrets in your base (or at least the most useful ones) are under cover. Airstrike splash dmg isn't as much as direct dmg iirc. Anyway, even if they use all 3 at once, that just means that they wont be using them airstrikes for quite a long time.

Can you just leave snipers alone. I don't see any problems with them. Matter in fact, stop pointing the OP finger at any class. Every class has it's strong/weak points.

Other than the 2-3 turrets directly next to your money ball the turrets in your base are vunerable to air strikes. Also if you have level 3 air strike you can target the ground nearby a turret and the splash damage will still hit the turret so the cover doesn't protect it. Btw, according to the stat files for the game the airstrike suffers no damage drop off as you get farther from the center of the explosion. Being hit by the very edge deals the same as being hit at the very middle. Its 2500dmg in a 512 unit Area period.

Shave ice turrets are an exception to the rule as they are support turrets with zero offensive capabilities. If you simply take out the other turrets besides the shave ice than the shave ice is little to no threat whatsoever. They do serve an important role, but they are rarely if ever your first or second targets when trying to clear an enemy base of turrets / bots.

Firebase at level 3 has 1500health, a fully upgraded Tank, with gold armor has 1000health.

I'm not suggesting that Bouncers be IMMUNE to grapples. I'm saying they shouldn't die in 1 grapple. Also the sniper has 2 grapples at his disposal which would be enough to kill a bouncer.

You keep talking about how laserblazers and longshots get one shotted by airstrikes but that's exactly how they work.

Laserblazers are dirt cheap and reflect it. Cheap and quick to build but lacking in firepower or armor. You get what you pay for.

Longshots are long range engagement turrets, usually to soften up bot lanes and surprise stationary pros. It stands to reason that a weapon that has long range ability lacks defensive capability.

As for assassins? Well, I'd only consider reducing lunge spam because the input device on PC makes balance different. They've nerfed the tank charge 3 and reduced ice trap time on PC, so maybe. But assassins need their mobility. If you're gonna complain about mobility just push your bots and deny the assassin bots to farm juice from. They're only really a threat when they have freedom of movement. Something tanks and supports can do with death blossom and well placed firebases.

But cloak? You can already hear assassins plus the invisibility isn't perfect at close range. What more do you want?

@Strider you're right, my mistake on the build times. They are different. However I still feel lazer and mortar don't have enough health. And I can still easily kill level 1 or 2 rockit turrets with no teamwork whatsoever and sometimes from a very safe position (A gunner using mortar is probably the worst offender of the imbalance of risk vs reward on tower killing.)

The assassin is already by far the most mobile class thanks to dash and high jump from smoke bomb. However I'm not suggesting you REMOVE her lunge. I'm merely suggesting having it tied to her dash skill. Make her have to use up some of it, perhaps at level 3 dash a lunge would use up 1/4th or 1/3rd of her dash skill. It regens very fast anyway.

The issue with cloak isn't that its impossible to find a cloaked assassin (which they are possible to find.) the issue is that you often end up being cloaked as often if not more often than you aren't cloaked. There is no skill or choice in using the cloak ability. Very little thought goes into "should I cloak now or uncloak now" As you can attack instantly out of a cloak, and cloak is almost always available there is little reason to ever NOT be cloaked. The only time you don't cloak is if you are on fire are in the middle of a fight, or you are simply too far from where the action currently is to bother needing to cloak.

Try playing the game for a few weeks. You're giving this hardly any thought it seems.

Honestly mibuwolf I find your attitude of "I know better than you no matter what you say because I registered first on the forums." to be rather irritating.

Fact is, for all you know I could have been playing the game since it was first released. However I've taken time to craft my thoughts, and I've researched the information and given you EXACT NUMBERS that you choose to ignore.

My feedback is my feedback. I can't say for sure whether my OPINION is right. Nor can you. So please stop acting like the game is perfect and needs no adjustments (NO game is perfect, especially if it has a multiplayer aspect to it. Anyone with any sort of experience in game design can tell you that, meta games adjust, players find new ways to circumvent things, players find ways to use abilities that the developer hadn't even considered a possibility. Its never done.)

I appreciate you giving your opinion, and I've taken the time to think over your statements. And I'm more than willing to admit when I've made a mistake or ill-informed statement. However you choose to write of my opinion as "noobs will be noobs" and you blatently admited to not having read my initial post.

You've provided nothing but snarky attitude to this thread and I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.