Do you think beta/gamma balance was better than now?

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by killerkiwijuice, February 12, 2015.

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Beta 1v1 Balance VS Current 1v1 Balance?-

  1. Beta 1v1 was near perfect

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  2. Beta 1v1 was better, with some huge issues though, including the T2 rush phase

    5 vote(s)
    18.5%
  3. Undecided

    4 vote(s)
    14.8%
  4. The current 1v1 balance is near perfect

    4 vote(s)
    14.8%
  5. The current 1v1 balance is better, with huge issues like t1 air spam on large maps

    13 vote(s)
    48.1%
  1. killerkiwijuice

    killerkiwijuice Post Master General

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    this includes the balance from late 2013 to early 2014, and the first 1/3 of gamma.
    This is meant to be a thread all about the massive changes and frequent changes of beta balance and how all of that compares to the balance today.

    -It looks like big maps and expansion were viable then, why?
    -Looks like there was an issue with T2 rushes, do you think that actually helped balance t1 spam or was it just the only viable strategy? Currently t1 air completely dominates large 1v1 maps.

    Let's talk about this stuff before some bigger maps get released.

    What would you like to see changed? ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited: February 12, 2015
  2. Tripod27

    Tripod27 Active Member

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    All I remember from beta balance (I think in gamma as well) was building a single T1 ground factory to spam out fabbers and AA trucks, then instantly building a T2 ground factory and making a ton of vanguards back when they were still flame tanks and driving them straight through the defensive walls of noobs trying to turtle and toasting their base and comms in minutes because they didn't go T2

    As far as what you said about T1 air, I would like the speed of air to be lowered slightly, since this is the only change I can think of that nerfs them on big maps while leaving them pretty much the same on all other maps (they're fine on small maps so I don't want to touch something like aa turret strength/cost ratio or air unit strenght/cost ratio since that would nerf them all around, while they already have more than enough speed to get to where they need to go on small maps), besides that maybe making combat air units have a height change transition time like air fabbers do when going over and under obstacles instead of instantly snapping over a mountain, although this is mostly because it looks weird, due to it's effects on balance being mostly maps with huge cliffs, and you don't see too many of those
  3. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    it had certainly had huge issues and it was clearly a local maximum in terms of gameplay quality. It had some very positive attributes and a bunch other rather big negative points.
    To fix those negative points rather big changes certainly were necessary and it gameplay quality has gone done for quite a while. Many of the issues we had are fixed now, but the big positives of beta (actually gamma) balance (meaning: epic big games) are not yet all there again. More fixes to the economy and to t2 balance as well as bigger maps and the introduction of wreckage will get us above gamma balance though, that much I am certain of.
    We'll get there.

    I btw totally disagree with this constant "oh no air dominates big maps". Yeah air turns out to be important. But just because the ratio of air to ground is 50:50 or even 60:40 does not mean air is the only thing in the game. I don't see a problem with it. If you dislike it, then ask for air to be nerfed into the ground to fix it. I don't really mind either way.
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  4. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    If by Beta Balance, you mean the balance of 57047, then maybe.

    I'm starting to think this balance may have topped that balance (finally). Big epic games don't happen as often, but there are so many cool features that have been added......

    Anyway, I just want to bring the focus back to awesome, large games in all modes. That's what will make PA the greatest EVAR.
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  5. killerkiwijuice

    killerkiwijuice Post Master General

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    I think air is dominant because it will instantly snipe mex so fast that you won't even have time to send your own fighter spam to deal with the blob.

    I think it's partly because of how the Galata turret is a little weak, and because the bombers can target the AA and then feed on anything left without AA.

    I was watching your replays on Exodus esports from beta, Colin. They look SOOOOO much more fun and they were played on large maps. I just wonder how proxies and large expansions can come back with such dramticallly changed balance.

    Why do you think you were able to build those proxies like those replays from Master of May, etc.?
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  6. bengeocth

    bengeocth Post Master General

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    BETA:

    *tries to play normally*
    *builds tanks*
    *attacks*
    *HORNETS EVERYWHERE*

    NOW:

    *tries to play normally*
    *builds everything*
    *tries to attack*
    *T1 AIR EVERYWHERE*
  7. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    Since it needs clarification evidently

    Beta balance is late alpha (August or so) to mid December 2013. Anything afterwards is lumped in with Gamma balance.
    killerkiwijuice likes this.
  8. Dementiurge

    Dementiurge Post Master General

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    Beta was marked by the introduction of orbital (besides the early orb. fighter) and planet smashing.

    Apart from that, I think there was some stuff about pelters, vanguards and catapults, but I never played it that much.
  9. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    There were huge flaws all beta and gamma. Just some minor ones now.
  10. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Which beta balance? Also your poll answers are ridiculous and your topic question is completely different from your poll.
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  11. philoscience

    philoscience Post Master General

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    I think there was one primary feature everyone loved in beta: proxies, proxies, proxies. beta was dominated by spamming factories literally all over the planet. It was a game of constant expansion and trying to literally encircle your opponent with lines of factories. I think we all remember that part quite fondly because it really stood out in terms of gameplay.

    Of course almost everything else was terrible. The game was a balls to the wall rush for T2, T2 air was redonkulous, and orbital was complete ****.

    So really rather than asking how we bring back beta balance, we need to be asking how do we bring back a strong (but not overly dominate) role for T2, and proxies/expansions. Surely there is a way to tweak today's balance to reintroduce these elements.
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  12. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    It was called "expand or die" and whole threads were dedicated to complaining about it.

    T2 air varied dramatically in power over the course of the beta. It's why talking about the "beta balance" is pointless. There were something like six or seven different metas over that period.
  13. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    To address these concerns we can look at the metas and see. I can try and pick out the ones I remember and discuss why these don't work too well now.

    Op t2 air. Firstly one t2 bomber could carpet bomb large armies. This was before ground aa units. Then Hummingbirds had crazy dps, one could kill like 10 t1 fighters and also damaged ground units causing them to destroy air factories as a unit rolled off it. This happened for a few builds which climaxed with the t2 air gunship rushing. Commander aa, veh Aa, t2 being more expensive and less powerful have fixed this.

    Expansion meta: The expand or die meta was a game of som city until 10 minutes with the odd fabber snipe to gain wins. It took longer to kill mexes than to build new ones and turrets were super strong and cheap. One turret without walls could kill 8 ants easily. Was cheap to build and because people expanded with 2/3 fabbers, they could build a turret in the time from when the ants come into radar view to reached the mex site.
    Dox speed, dps and cheapness, t1 units halving on price when the t2 factories
    and units at least doubled. Turret nerf , bombers being useful again. Mex hp nerf stopped this type of gameplay.

    The proxy meta. This ties in with the expansion one as proxies were made possible due to the power of turrets. You could defend your base with some turrets/Pelters. Shellers could deter any t1 spam with their large dps. Now if a player builds a proxy you just send all units to his main base and expansions. And wall off the proxy with turrets. It is still viable in large maps.

    Godde v Matiz kotp meta. Prob my favorite gameplay ever. Little too sim city but exciting. T1 units not worth it as they were severely underpowered to t2z Vg drops, proxies, large eco.
    Cheaper t1 and more expensive and less op t2 units stopped this. Pelican also moved to t2.
    Last edited: February 12, 2015
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  14. philoscience

    philoscience Post Master General

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    Yeah I don't think i'll ever forget that Godde v Matiz game. Easily the most exciting matches so far.
  15. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    I have never read expand or die before. Also complaining about expansion is totally ridiculous. What is so fun about one base all ins? I remember an "expansion is dead" complaint thread after the t1 changes broke it though.

    Depending on what beta/gamma build you talk about there were always some drastic unit imbalanced, but the expansion/proxy balance was full of glory. Fight everywhere or die.
  16. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Minor correction, the Pelican was T2 in the era you're talking about. It got moved to T1 for one patch and then moved straight back to T2 because you and Matiz showed that Commander drops were serious BS.
  17. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    https://forums.uberent.com/search/582493/?q="expand or die"&o=date
  18. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    My recollection of beta is:

    Mass Ants into Levellers
    All Dox all day
    Mass Ants into Levellers
    Mass T1 land into Hornets
    Kestrel rush (the most BS meta ever)
    T2 rush (the macro era)

    The one consistent factor was the moon love for 1v1 play.
    Last edited: February 12, 2015
  19. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    They all had some good parts. The macro era had the most good things by far.

    16 results overall:
    - the first few are this thread
    - then some post from mered4 in late january, not really a dedicated thread and month after the last "heafy expansion" balance.
    - some posts from the RLM balance thread, a mod that tries/tried to rebalance the game into something I don't agree with on many fundamental levels.
    - one post in a thread that asks for a tower nerf somewhere in summer last year. Doesn't really focus on the point either.

    So yeah... really no threads about that. Not many posts :p
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  20. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Because search is quite literal. That was a term used, I'm sure there were others. Sim city for one.

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