Counter Classes

For everyone who doesnt know, Street Fighter runs off of a Tier system.

The way it works is, as some characters do have better overall odds, all characters have good matchups and bad matchups.

Guile is a High Level Tournament Favorite. He is good against a lot if played flawlessly, and easy to not mess up with. He is BAD against dahlsim. Dahlsim will counter everything Guile has, and still end up doing the damage and not taking the damage most of the time. Guile can't counter everything back.

Sagat used to be what everybody played in tournaments. He had even matchups, and good matchups. No bad matchups. He was broken quite a bit, most tournaments were won by Sagat players. Hell, most of the LAST TEN MATCHES were entirely Sagat players playing other Sagat players. He could have used nerfs. He got mild nerfs, he is now balanced along with mid-upper tier characters.

Even worse, back in an older Street Fighter, there was Gill. NO OTHER CHARACTER BEAT Gill, not unless that Gill player LITERALLY didn't know how to press down-forward-punch. A common move, that required no kind of energy meter to do, did more damage than another character's super, which requires 3 energy meters. This move killed instantly, damaged 1/3 when blocked, and hit full screen and air. Tournaments BANNED this character because even playing as this character against this character was no skill involved.

Then there is Gouken. Gouken is lower-mid tier, he has exploitable flaws. Yet, many many complaints arise about him having one of the only parry's, allowing him to instantly hit back an enemy if he predicts the hit, and how he can perform an ultra out of a regular throw. Did he need nerf? No, regular players needed to learn to play better. Bottom line, if you use grapples a lot against a Gouken, you will crush him 6/10 of the time. Nobody won tournaments with Gouken.

Finally, there is Dan. He taunts. His moves are short-range, weak mimmics of other characte's moves. If your good, and the opponent is bad, you can position yourself right and sometimes win with him, but he could be beaten by a large margin by any of the other characters, and had no good matchups.

Now, I will ask. Before asking for nerfs and buffs, consider this: What catergory does that class fall under? I must ask for you to refrain from asking for said nerf if its not Sagat or Gill level, or buff if its not Dan level.

WILL A <insert class name, here> BEAT ANY OTHER <insert all classes, here> BY A GOOD MARGAIN IF THEY BOTH KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

Far too many variables to consider: distance apart, presence of Bots or other players and the position the players are in, for example. You can't make a comparison like in fighter.

That said, Tank>All.

Reason: Beard.

Tiers aren't really relevant in a team game. Some pros are clearly better at killing other pros, but that means jack if that doesn't lead to a victory. Assaults are definitely good pro and moneyball killers, but they are the worst turret killers as well and pretty mediocre against bots. So tiers don't mean much if you need most classes in a team anyway.

The only way it makes sense to talk about tiers, is by comparing which team composition is generally the strongest and which composition counters which. A team heavy on assaults with 2/3 classes for taking out bots and turrets could probably do well. Other than that, I don't really know.

I present you Gold RoF, Nade launcher + juice.

I found the street fighter analogy very interesting, being a fan of both games


Majority of posters asking for nerfs do so because they only play one class and either want to see their own class buffed or their counter nerfed, only players who have experience with all the strengths and weaknesses of all the classes can really make an informed opinion.

Generally the three main classes whined about are assault, sniper and sin.

Assault:
Main complaints seem to be about his fast recharge of bomb and charge skills, making him best 1v1 pro killer with little weakness, along with being one of the best money ball killers.
But hes balanced because hes average at clearing bots and average at killing turrets.

Sniper:
The glass cannon, so many people whine about his area control and headshot ability but forget how fragile he is, at certain range against most classes he can be destroyed easily, hes a high risk/reward character and needs alot of skill to be fully utilised.

Assassin:
Can seem like a godly character in the hands of a high skilled player on pubs since he can kill bots, turrets, pro's and moneyball at will. But in a private game with experienced players the sin can be shut down since the opponent are smart enough to escort their bots to prevent farming for juice, the base will have iceshaves, pro's will rarely go off alone to be easily picked off for an easy assassination and overheals will make grapple kills impossible. It will take time for pub players to catchup and learn how sin's are countered.


I see very few complaints about the heavy classes though, being large and slow targets their weaknesses are obvious (plus are hard countered by sniper) so dont get much criticism. I think support is also generally accepted to be perfectly balanced.

i swear on the bible, the qu'ran, the torah, the five classics and the analects, the tao-te-ching, and the veda and bhagavad gita... and for those of you who believe in NONE of that, the existance of the universe itself... that as i play this game at low and high levels, i know this:

any team full of one class would get STOMPED by another class just by spamming an ability.

assaults? firebases and turrets everywhere, 1v1 an assault will never destroy an already deployed firebase or a turret while its being healed, and wont outpush bots to a support.

snipers? grenade spam will prevent them from being able to do anything but hide waiting for health regen. by time they unhide, bots will already be in their base because they had to hide in the first place (snipers cant kill bots when hiding)

assassins? spam the field with explosive rounds, then assassins hafta do their job very dangerously and slowly, or focus on snipers while missing the bots and letting the bots win. tanks even work if they all walk with the bots, 2 on each bot lane means that they deathblossom at the same time and kill armored assassins before they can kill a single bot.

NOTHING in this game goes without a counter. EVERYTHING in this game should be left relatively alone. cmon dammit. cmon.

Nerf Sniper Rate of fire.


That is all.

Sincerely,

Gunner

Pretty much this.

I think people should just get into the mindset that having setbacks, while frustrating, is something to learn from. Only then will they be able to beat the other class.

First thing: the Street Fighter tier system develops over years with extensive tournament play pitting exceptional players against each other. MNC has none of this, and without significant community uptake, never will. Though it probably would not take very long to solve MNC should an actual competitive scene develop. Even TF2 is a relatively solved game and that is already much more complex.

Second: There is no such thing as a counter class. The only counter in this game is simply being better at deathmatch. This is class independent.

There are counter classes, Tank is a pretty hard counter to Assassin. Sniper has an advantage over tank and gunner.

There just isn't a neat system where every class has 1 class that hard counters it.

Your original post reminded me of how I always wondered about one Street Fighter character: Oro. He's mentioned to be by far the most powerful character in the entire Street Fighter canon (he tied with "Shin Akuma", the previously considered "ultimate being" in the SF universe with one hand tied behind his back to prevent accidentally killing him...). Yet, I've never seen him in any actual gameplay... I mean, given how insanely powerful he's supposed to be according to canon, one would think he would be one of those "joke/absurdly OP" characters. But I've never seen any videos of him or anything.

I'm not the biggest Street Fighter buff, mind you... So there might be a catch I'm unaware of.

On topic: I don't agree with the whole "tier" issue. I mean, I know that happens in Street Fighter, I'm saying it shouldn't happen. Characters should all be equally balanced. When they're not, the developers failed.

That said, the only thing I think should be touched in the current game balance is the assault's bomb. It does really high damage (one hit kill often, always a one hit kill if "headcrabed" afaik), it recharges really fast and has a very large radius.... and, unlike every other area of denial tool, it can not be affected by enemies. It's the only area of denial tool that can not be affected by an enemy.

The Sniper's freeze traps can be exploded. The Support's Firebase can be destroyed. Airstrikes only last a second or two before hitting (and therefore removing themselves as area of denial). Only the bomb can't be removed without killing the assault.

Given it's power, range, utility and recharge speed, I figure it should be like the freeze traps, and it should be possible to damage/destroy by shooting/exploding the trap.

That's it. Everything else seems fine so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ZffhnvXFg that is why you don't play Oro

I agree that it should be destroyable in the same way an ice trap is. Normally when I say that, Assassins usually want it to be shootable because they can't blow it up, which is bogus if they cant just jump/lunge the damn thing.

I also agree about increasing the time it takes to regenerate. Although a seperate functioning idea would be to make the bomb not regenerate fully while another one is out, thus preventing 2 from going off in any 5 second period.

I don't even mind how fast it regens if we have a chance to destroy it. It's just that currently once the thing is down it's basically closing down an entire pathway with one move.

If a player were to reach peak Sniper skill while still being human (not aimbot), they would be able to kill the best of any other class nine (if not ten) times out of ten in you average mid range match up assuming no unbalanced scenarios. (i.e. Sniper has a headcrab)

This is due to quick scoping and snap shotting.

So.
Yeah.
I dunno, is this question even a real question? Is it not obvious that Sniper has a humongous skill ceiling (easily the highest) in this game?

I'd argue that at an equal skill level the enemy wouldn't get in that position to begin with. They'd use indirect fire to force the sniper out of their spot, or kill them outright.

Also depends on the actual range and which class. At "close medium range", a fully spun up gunner with dual minis will generally beat the sniper as it manages to kill the sniper faster than they can scope.

At PERFECT play, and I mean absolutely inhuman godlike skill, yeah, any Sniper in any game balanced for normal humans (one hit kill headshots) are inherently broken. That's why people who aimbot generally use snipers.

Except people like that don't exist. At human levels of skill, even considering the most skilled humans, it's balanced.

If somehow someone evolved past that barrier of conceivable human skill, I'd still say not to touch it, because they'd deserve it. It's the reason I love playing sniper. The skill ceiling is damn near infinite.

Can I argue the same for the Sniper? He wouldn't dumb enough to get Naded/Mortar'd etc.?

If the Gunner's Spun Up, can we say the Sniper is zoomed in?

You're kinda skewing it so that it's as if the Sniper is unaware of what's going on around him.
If a peak skill sniper is aware of an enemy, they are likely dead.

As said, quick scoping and the like.

Goodluck avoiding a hidden air strike.

Besides, if you're forcing the sniper to fall back, you're doing your job, forcing the sniper to not do theirs. Eventually they'll be forced back into the spawn.

50% of a sniper's job is positioning. You **** with that and you're halfway into killing a good sniper.

Try aiming at things outside of your scope while zoomed in. Guarantee the spun up gunner will find the target first.

And you're making it sound as if the sniper class comes with a default wallhack and aimbot.

You think a sniper can track the movement of EVERY enemy player? If he's THAt focused on you, Congrats, you're doing your job, he's not killing anyone else.

As I said, play to your advantages. Every class has them.

Half the walls in the levels are see-through, and the maps are a lot of open space. It's not hard to know where enemies are for the most part.

And I'm sorry about the whole aimbot thing, but I was under the impression that this topic was about judging classes by their effectiveness at peak human skill (most useful balancing point). Which I would assume means that the Sniper in question can pull off more BS headshots than I can.

Being able to instant kill any class at any range (bar super duper close I guess) is a pretty awesome advantage - especially when the Sniper class already has a lot going for it.

Again, I have played with some that do this. It's like a burned in, overpracticed set of accurate muscle movements. Overtraining makes some people proficient at infinite combos, in fighting games that require 1/60th second reflexes.

I agree to make it harder to aim, maybe force it to unscope after every shot, make the sniper rifle inaccurate until a second after being scoped, ect.

However, saying that someone could be computer accurate with it so it needs a nerf that cripples it doesnt make sense. I have never played against any sniper that I couldn't beat consistently as an assault. I played against Poh-tay-toes.